Hi, mrsD:

I know it can seem disgusting to eat chicken hearts, beef hearts (cut in pieces), and pork hearts (also cut in pieces) in a salad, but the hearts are not the only ingredients present in the salad. I put in all kinds of foods, such as shrimp, ham, cheese, bacon... with the hearts in the salad. With the right " salad sauce", it is pretty good. Of course, there are foods a person likes that another one might find disgusting.

Yes, I saw the ads about the CoQ10 Plus on TV. I will stay away from these TV products and look for the right product for me elsewhere, depending on how much my body needs. Maybe a blood test can determine this amount. I will try to find the Puritan's product and take it in the dosage you mentioned, while waiting, if necessary, for a blood test to determine the right amount for me.

Thanks for your information.

I sure do:

http://www.practicalpainmanagement.c...y-chronic-pain

http://www.practicalpainmanagement.c...tractable-pain

http://www.practicalpainmanagement.c...in-update-2010

http://www.practicalpainmanagement.c...-pain-patients

The testosterone issue is not limited to men. Testosterone is just as important for women in controlling pain - just in much smaller amounts:

http://www.practicalpainmanagement.c...-pain-patients

http://www.chronicpainsite.com/Articles/view.asp?ID=117

Many (not all) of these articles are by Dr. Forest Tennant, and more can be found on his two sites:

http://intractablepaindisease.com/

http://foresttennant.com/

You can also google: chronic pain hormone therapy

As I mentioned previously, it's not just opioids - chronic pain itself can suppress/deplete hormones, and this does include thyroid hormones:

http://www.21centurymed.com/?page_id=132

http://www.healthcentral.com/chronic...57450/hormones

You can also google: thyroid hormone chronic pain

I am currently pursuing this avenue of treatment, and am chronicling it on the chronic pain forum:
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/thread156416.html

IT'S HELPING!

Doc

Hi, Dr. Smith:

Quote: "As I mentioned previously, it's not just opioids - chronic pain itself can suppress/deplete hormones, and this does include thyroid hormones."

Thanks for helping me understand all this. Like you said, since chronic pain itself can suppress/deplete hormones, including thyroid hormones, I am almost absolutely sure that my generalized RSD is to blame, because this syndrome is responsible for my severe chronic pain and for my need to use strong narcotic painkillers for the rest of my life. It does not bother me at all to have to use this type of medication for the rest of my life because I know without the shadow of a doubt that I am not a drug addict, but a chronic pain patient. Like I used to tell everybody: "Take away my generalized RSD and its severe chronic pain and I will take away my painkillers."

I will read and print, if you do not mind, your chronicle about hormones as painkillers in the Chronic Pain forum. Besides printing and reading all the documents from the links you posted, your printed chronicle will help by showing your experience with chronic pain and hormones.

Thanks for all the information.

No problem. Dr. Tennant has more case histories in his articles, and more scientific than mine.

I'd also caution not to read through rose colored glasses. Dr. Ray Sahelian has some warnings about taking high does of some of these hormones. You'll notice that I'm taking considerably less than Dr, Tennant recommends. I started with a very low dose and titrated up to where I got side effects, then tapered back down to what feels like an effective dose without side effects. It depends on how low your levels are, and each persons sensitivity to these substances. As natural substances, there's very little, if any, regulation, so proceed with caution, but I think the results have been worth it for me.

I'm due for retesting in another 6 weeks or so.

Doc

The reason there is caution with hormones, like this is the risk of CANCER.

This is why Dr. Tennant uses "intermittent" dosing. And also why you find some cautions on other websites.

Some doctors will test DHEA levels. and if low, esp in older people will give some replacement. But this area is not really considered 100% safe for all people.

Do your homework, and proceed cautiously.

What in medicine is really considered 100% safe for all people?
It's all benefit vs. risk.

While cancer is a potential risk of taking hormones (usually in large doses and long-term, with abuse, and/or with other associated risks), I've never seen cancer stated as the reason for intermittent dosing. I doubt the kind of intermittency talked about, which is relatively short-term, would have much/any effect on cancer anyway.

Everything I've seen has said the reason for taking breaks is so that the glands do not cease making hormones on their own entirely, as in the cases of healthy athletes (e.g. body-builders) taking testosterone for performance enhancement. Their bodies sense that they have enough (or too much) so there is no reason to keep producing, so they shut down - the result being hypogonadism (or other hypoglandular conditions). That's reason enough for intermittency.

Hypogonadism and/or adrenal suppression caused by chronic pain, opioids, and other medical reasons is the kind of replacement the articles are talking about. Anything else is risky and possibly even abuse.

For people with extremely low hormone levels, the risks from the consequences of those low levels may be deemed greater than they are from cancer. There are, of course, inherent risks as there are with any medications (whether prescription, OTC, herbal, vitamins & supplements, etc), it's a case of benefit vs. risk.

Pregnenolone is (according to Dr. Tennant) one of the safest of these hormones, yet I am still not taking the dosage he recommends, as I have a reaction to that much. I take less than half his recommendation, and I slowly titrated to find that. Also, as with B-12, D3, and other supplements, once a healthier level is achieved, the dosage and frequency can & will be reduced to something very low and safer long-term, along with regular monitoring & screening.

Homework & caution - always! That's why I referenced Dr. Sahelian, and often recommend a googling in lieu of specific links - so that different/all sides of an issue can be considered.

Doc

As people age, hormone levels naturally go down. It is part of the aging process. With our expanded life expectancy, using hormones during this later time of life, may become problematic.

There are hormone receptors on cells, and we know that in breast cancer patients, who have positive estrogen receptors, that estrogen is contraindicated.

For men with prostate cancer, hormone receptor blockers are used. Lupron is one such hormone reducing medication used for prostate cancer.

No one yet can say on a cellular level what is happening to people. So any small cancer not detected yet, has the potential for being stimulated by any hormone for which it has the corresponding receptor.

One can look this up on the net, and I am not going to do so today because I am too busy.

That being said, I still advocate that people proceed with caution about self medication with hormones or hormone stimulants.

As far as Vit B12 and D being able to reduce once fixed? Not necessarily so.

Whatever causes the B12 and D to get low in the first place has to be fixed...and finding that is still not an easy task, and perhaps that whole system is broken.

People with malabsorption issues (Crohn's or Celiac) or those with genetic errors in enzyme manufacture (MTHFR polymorphism) are not going to be able to go off the supplements they need. Some people lose the ability to make Vit D in the skin, and they will need supplements instead.

Dr. Sahelian is a good reference. He typically has studies on his site which are useful. However, I don't think the very newest dates for studies are updated often there.

As we age our mitochondria age as well. This is where the research is going. So interested people here can search the "mitochondria" papers to find more on this topic. Starting at Juvenon.com is a good beginning as Dr. Ames is a forerunner of this research.

I don't advocate self-medication at all, but that folks work with their doctors all the way.

That's only half of what I said. That sentence concluded with, "with regular monitoring & screening." In the case of hormone replacement due to chronic pain/opioid therapy, (which is the only reason I've been discussing), the cause is presumed known (as determined by testing and dx). As Dr. Tennant has recommended, intractable pain patients should/will have to continue monitoring levels, but once they are normalized, dosage can be reduced.

The problem I have with Drs. Sahelian & those on Juvenon is that they're "selling" something. I read what they have to say, but with a more skeptical eye. This is also the toughest kind of evidence to discuss with my doctors; they're more skeptical than I am, and dismissive.

Also, neither mentions the specific type/reason for hormone supplementation we're talking about here at all.

Doc

Hi, Dr. Smith and mrsD:

Dr. Smith, you talked about hypogonadism in one of your previous messages in this thread. I am not sure if I understood you and the documents from your links right, but may I ask you if opioids can cause hypothyroidism? If you already answered this question, please excuse me for asking again; my memory is not what it used to be since I got my head trauma in August 2001. Another question: what do you think about the pain killing effects of natural progesterone taken in capsule form, since again, my body is not making any?

MrsD, I have to take levothyroxine (right now, at the dosage of one 25 mcg tablet once daily) for the rest of my life, because my thyroid has an auto-immune disease (thyroiditis), which I read in some web sites could lead to hypothyroidism. I also read in these web sites that thyroiditis is another name for Hashimoto's hypothyroidism. Can taking levothyroxine in tablet form for the rest of my life give me cancer?

Thank you both for your information.

I don't know of any connection to thyroid cancer. Levothyroxine is what your thyroid makes.

Some people recover from thyroiditis, and no longer need the hormone. It is fairly common for women to become mildly hypo after delivering a baby, take the hormone for a while, and then go off eventually.

Only when the thyroiditis damages cells, and they can no longer produce hormone is external hormone given for life.

Did you test positive for the Hash antibodies?