NeuroTalk Support Groups - Vitamin B6 Pyridoxine/P-5-P information:

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- - Vitamin B6 Pyridoxine/P-5-P information: (https://www.neurotalk.org/vitamins-nutrients-herbs-and-supplements/30724-vitamin-b6-pyridoxine-5-information.html)

thanks,...i thought i had read in some of the previous that zinc , and for woman-vit C, were also important? but i missed the B2.....and with the etoh background.....i think she is alreay on thiamine......

B2 is riboflavin, not thiamine. Thiamine is B1. But if she is an alcoholic, doctors typically put them on Cefol, or something like it. (which would be B-complex and would have both in it).

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrsD (Post 578903)

B2 is riboflavin, not thiamine. Thiamine is B1. But if she is an alcoholic, doctors typically put them on Cefol, or something like it. (which would be B-complex and would have both in it).

lol....I KNOW that b2 isnt thiamine.....i was referencing the thiamine to the etoh.......

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrsD (Post 392469)

don't change. P5P is basically for people with failures in B6 metabolism. Since this has been a hidden issue, it is recommended for people with neuro problems (who may have metabolic failures and that is why they have neuro issues).

But if your product works for you, then you obviously don't need to change.

Nice to see you are back and safely too.

Hi. This is my first time here. I have been in emergency twice this week (only once before in my 40 years). I thought I was having a stroke because of tingling in my leg in the am, arm in the pm, and face the next day, my daughter's 10th birthday!:( The tingling in my leg has since subsided. They ruled out stroke. My strength and coordination are good. I did start taking a
B6, B12, Folic Acid formula 3 days prior to the onset of these symptoms. The amount of B6 is 50mg. The only other vitamin I have ever taken was a One-a-Day, which apparently has 1/20 the amount of B6. Dr.s are telling me B6 levels cannot be tested for with a blood test. I am scrambling, trying to figure out what is going on. I do not take any other drugs, and the only health problem I have is an underactive thyroid. I am on Synthroid for this.
Thank you.

It is hard to say without testing.

Bcomplex could be increasing healing in previously damaged areas, and tingling is a sign of nerves waking up (or dying).

The fact that B6 causes neuropathy at BOTH ends of its spectrum --too low and too high--- makes diagnosis difficult when symptoms appear.

Thyroid can cause weird sensations, and so can perturbations in calcium/magnesium status.

There are definitely blood tests for D,K, B12, B6, thiamine, folate.
There are also tests for red blood cell content of vitamins instead of serum which most doctors order. Spectracell labs do these.

http://www.spectracell.com/

I found this article this morning...it is very interesting:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1297572/

Quote:

Vitamin B6 deficiency results in adverse health consequences, including hyperhomocysteinemia [1] and possibly arteriosclerotic lesions [2]. We have reported that the degree of disease activity is associated with vitamin B6 indices in patients with rheumatoid arthritis [3,4]. Bates and colleagues reported suboptimal vitamin B6 status in inflammatory conditions and in the acute-phase response in the elderly population [5]. These observations have attracted attention partly because vitamin B6 deficiency and several markers of inflammation were both found to be independent risk factors for thrombosis [6,7]. Although several clinical trials and epidemiological studies have demonstrated the associations between vitamin B6 and inflammatory diseases, the association between vitamin B6 status and inflammatory markers has been contentious, and the cause-effect relationship between these two has not been elucidated....
Results:
In the human study, plasma pyridoxal 5'-phosphate concentrations were significantly lower in patients than in healthy subjects (with about 50% lower). This observation was comparable to our previous finding [3]. In contrast, no difference was found between patients and controls in erythrocyte pyridoxal 5'-phosphate or erythrocyte aspartate aminotransferase or 4-pyridoxic acid levels. No difference was found in concentrations of plasma folate, red blood cell folate or plasma vitamin B12 between patients and controls.

B6 and Parkinson's

This link is thanks to lurkingforacure at Parkinson's forum:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0115182627.htm

It concerns the poor expression of pyridoxal kinase in the brain being linked to a faulty gene which occurs in Parkinson's patients.
Pyridoxal kinase is the enzyme that activates pyridoxine from food and supplements so the body can use it.

I have advancing neuropathy for years, getting problems with walking. Now I read that to much B6 can be the problem. I take 10 mg B6 a day, but my bloodlevel is 536 nmol/l, which is quite high. Pyridoxal is 137 nmol/l. I don't know about pyridoxal bloodlevels, is this I high level? Or could it be that I don't make pyridoxal from pyridoxine? If so: what to do? If not: where does all the B6 come from.

I am Dutch and I find it quite difficult to write in English as you probabely notice. But I can read it really well...

This subject keeps cropping up for patients with PN.

First of all regarding blood levels:

I don't think the medical community can interpret these except for very low ones. The reason is that lab ranges are determined from a statistical comparison of so called normal people who have their blood drawn (who have no pathology that is known at the time). Higher than those ranges would be found in anyone who takes any supplements. For example for B12, people taking a supplement often report out of range values, 1000-2000, when 800 is typically the upper cut off. These high values of B12 only show that it is being absorbed into the body as needed. The tests for B6 are most accurate in the very low ranges, and were initially designed to discover patients suffering from drug induced low B6--- some drugs cause this, like INH which is used to treat tuberculosis.

Pyridoxine has the confusing issue of causing neuropathic symptoms in very high doses, and when deficient, so this clouds the interpretation of blood values also. We are finding --as per the study I quoted earlier in this thread--- that autistic children present with high blood levels --higher than expected--- when there are NO supplements being used. This reflects a genetic error of metabolism of some sort, which has not been explained as yet. But in the face of these results, doctors for autistic children give MORE B6, and it helps.

The only documented studies I have seen on PubMed involve giving GRAMS (1-3 grams) of B6 which were seen to cause neuropathic toxic symptoms. The actual number of people who have been reported to have toxicity from B6 is very small.
This became evident back in the days that B6 was used in very high amounts of 500mg a day or more for treating PMS in women.

Why B6 is building up in some people, is still unknown. Why it is not excreted as a water soluble vitamin is also unknown. But we do know that B6 as pyridoxal is stored for short periods of time in muscle tissue to aid in metabolism and creation of energy. There is B6 in the food you eat. Mostly from meat.
Some fortified cereals contain about 2mg of B6 (Total for example) per serving, and some grains like wheat.

I don't think at this time there is an answer to your question. I could not find any explanation for a small daily intake of B6 to cause your problems. The only way for you to find out what is going on is to stop all B6, stop eating fortified foods, and cut back on meat for a while --6mons or longer-- and see what happens. If you have no intake of B6 you should not have high blood levels. If your levels go down and you still have neuropathic symptoms, then the B6 is not your culprit. All the studies show that ELEVATED B6 neuropathy is reversible, and not permanent.

The medical community is finding that genetic errors of metabolism in humans occur, and they may account for age acquired chronic diseases.

There are people born with a condition called B6 dependency.
These individuals typically have seizures beginning in infancy, and require huge amounts of B6 to stop them. They take doses that are enormous, and they do not develop neuropathy. But they are also rare, and I saw a quote once that only about 100 people have been identified with this disorder.
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/985667-overview

People may not convert pyridoxine to pyridoxal if they are low in riboflavin-- B2.

Progressing neuropathy can have many causes. Autoimmune, gluten intolerance, hereditary Charcot Marie Tooth genetic errors, insulin resistance/diabetes, thyroid disease, certain drugs like statins and fluoroquinolone antibiotics, and some chronic exposure to toxins in the environment.

when/how to take NOW p5p?

I just bought NOW enteric coated P5P 50 mg. The instructions say to take it before a meal, but I find it hard to follow that for my teenage son with tics during the school week. Within 10 minutes of waking up for school, he's ready for breakfast. As soon as he comes home, he's ready to eat...and I would be nuts to think he would wake up earlier to swallow a pill. I might be able to give it to him in the evenings, but again, it seems like he's snacking after dinner till bedtime.

How bad is it to take P5P with food?

This is what I give my son.

15 minutes after waking up (with breakfast):
1 tsp natural calm
1/4 tsp NOW taurine powder 1000mg (just started today)
1/4 tsp Jarrows inositol powder (may discontinue when I run out)
1 capsule CVR magnesium taurate
1/4 tablet Natrol 5htp (25mg 12 hour release)
1/4 cup raw and roasted shelled pumpkin seeds from trader joes for mag.
1 gummy multi vitamin and gummy omega
1 p5p (haven't started this yet-hope to boost the magnesium effectiveness)

Evenings:
1 tsp natural calm
gummy omega
1/4 tablet 5htp
more pumpkin seeds

Our hope is to alleviate the tics during 8am-4pm, when he's at school. He doesn't tic much when he's at home.

Should he take more supplements in the evening, in hopes that it gets absorbed and works then during 8-4pm. Or is it best to give to him at 7am?

I was hoping to split the P5P am/pm, but with the enteric coating, I thought that would defeat the purpose.

My son doesn't even know that I put the 3 powders in his OJ in the mornings. He is willing to take some supplements and eat pumpkin seeds to reduce his tics, but still laments about taking "pills like an old man". He was on vitamin shoppe mag citrate for a while, but I had to cut the pills into 3, so switched to the Calm and Mag Taurate recently.

I would love feedback on how to best give the supplements for optimal absorption and effectiveness during the school hours.

I'm considering stopping the 5htp and trying SAM-e 200mg. My son isn't outright depressed, but he's a quiet kid and doesn't display much enthusiasm/happiness. When he saw the bottle of 5htp for "mood enhancement", he was very willing to take it, so I know he considers himself a bit down too. But I read SAM-e also needs to be taken on an empty stomach, so that may be an issue too.

I could give him the P5P on weekends before breakfast, and maybe again just on Wednesday. Does P5P stay in your body, or does it flush out? Sorry I'm just thinking outload.

Thanks so much for any help and advice.