comment...
 

When there are errors in genetic expression of enzymes, biochemically the body does go wonky. Many things may fail to work properly. That is why we have syndromes and disease. When certain cofactors (vitamins) are missing or are needed in dependency states (pyroluria), you cannot blame the substrate, which in this case is the essential amino acid tryptophan.

However, in reality tryptophan is NOT toxic. It is an essential amino acid, which means we have to have it ...or suffer.

Genetic errors in metabolism occur for many other substances, and I guess the interpretation of that is what is being questioned here.

A very special case, does not generalize to everyone, or to the general population. When things break down, due to deficiency or genetic error, the conclusions are not generalizable to others who do NOT have those errors.

This is a very good resource, and does not include tryptophan "toxicity".
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocente...cin/index.html

The only significant tryptophan toxicity occurred during manufacture years ago in Japan, which led to EMS due to a chemical contaminant during that manufacture (which was called Peak X). This has been corrected and tryptophan is now available as a single amino acid again. Much of what I have read states that high doses are self limiting, and that more conservative use
reaps better results.

Dear mrsd,

Thanks for looking over this thread. If you have any additional ideas, they would be greatly appreciated. You had given me some good tips on OBT.

Thanks! :)

Dear west1...
 

I am curious as to what reaction you had with the magnesium taurate.
Your dose of Toprol is very low, a minimum really, and at this dose side
effects are not common.

I have very little experience with Vit K use over the counter. I confess I am
a bit afraid of it actually, since people tend to have clotting issues more than "bleeding" ones. I really see Vit K used on RX frequently in the hospital and long term care facilities because of the difficulty in maintaining Warfarin doses.
People can be very brittle with Warfarin, going up and down all the time. So K
is typically used to fix Warfarin dosing. People in USA are very prone to
Cox-2 cytokines, the stress ones, which tend to cause platelet clumping. So use of K OTC makes me nervous, thinking one could inadvertently increase clotting risks. People with good EFA status..like you are doing, are less at risk, since the Cox-2s are balanced by the Cox-1s.

On the horizon are new anti-clotting agents, which will be better I think, but they are still in testing.

I think your CoQ-10 is low. This nutrient works better in higher doses. I use 150mg when I take it (which is not every day).

You have put alot of thought and effort into your list...and that shows.
Just remember that the zinc elemental is probably around 7mg/tab and the copper is also less than 2mg I would expect. Did you have a zinc/copper ratio drawn? You may not need ALOT of copper, unless you tend to be anemic, or have joint issues.

I found that with time, my needs for certain nutrients changed. I don't take as much B6 now like I did in the past. I also get more EFAs from foods now, since they are being added. (Smart Balance). I still need magnesium, potassium, and I take Cod Liver oil concentrate in the winters now. I have been ramping up my Thiamine as well. But I think AGE has alot to do with things. When I start up at the gym, I will be going back to my old faves. Activity seems to stress out my muscles, etc. That is my weakness. Each person has a "weakness" I think, that is genetic. So see how you feel on this list...and be open to tweeking it.;)

re:
 

Thanks mrsd for your comments.

I had tried magnesium taurate earlier in the Summer for the headaches and it didn’t seem to help much for that. Regarding Toprol and magnesium, I had a few strange initial side effects after first starting Toprol XL. I actually began having some chest pains, as well as leg cramps and fatigue. I took a couple magnesium taurate capsules (125 mg each) during this time and the “chest pains” got worse. I took a BP reading during this time (I had previously bought a portable BP monitor) and the reading was 119/106 (strange diastolic) at 55 pulse rate. I got an appt. with my PCP doctor (who had prescribed it) a few days later and he couldn’t find anything out of the ordinary. Within several days after onset, these side effects gradually faded away and I have had no further issues (for well over 2 months now). I have since been a little wary of taking any more magnesium though while on Toprol.

Regarding Vitamin K, I would also be wary about taking Vitamin K1 (the one that primarily effects coagulation) as well, but Vitamin K2 appears to be potentially very good. One of the nutrients I researched was Vitamin K (see Vitamin K, Reference Information) as it is one of the potentially depleted nutrients of GABA-A receptor complex agonists (sedatives, etc.). There is currently a lot of research and some excitement going on with Vitamin K2, as there is with Vitamin D. If you get a chance, try to look over this information and see what you think.

I am mainly taking CoQ10 as it is a nutrient potentially depleted by Toprol XL (metoprolol), per the Drug-Induced Nutrient Depletion Handbook. I referenced CoQ10 at Dr. Sahelian’s site http://www.raysahelian.com/coq10.html for dosage information, but I will consider your recommendation to increase the dose. Regarding copper, I initially thought I might be overloaded (causing the headaches), which is why I requested the copper test, but the test result was actually low.

I am a little leery about posting so much detail, but I am just tired of telling doctors my symptoms and getting that “blank stare” from them and I know there are those such as yourself who are knowledgeable and willing to help. This is also why I began doing my own research (as I have felt like it). The constant “dullness” and headaches are what continue to bother me the most and all of these issues have kept me from working for a long time. Maybe this information may also be of some help to others.

I suffered daily headaches and then migraines followed as I got older.

When my son was deemed 'celiac', our whole house went gluten free.

Then my Mom gave us some Lindt Chocolate Easter bunnies (Lindt uses malt but at the time I didn't know that malt was gluten). I suffered for 3 days after that/those :eek::o bunnies!!

Please do look at food reaction as the number one cause for any type of headache.

I did an elimination diet and every once in a while do a 'fast' so that I can retest something that seems suspect. Grains seem to be very troublesome for both my spouse and myself, as well as our two children (we have 3 but haven't given the youngest one any grains yet... and so don't know about his status).

Dairy can cause headaches and sinus. My dd get bone pain if she consumes it.... oh, earaches/infections also. She is a mirror of my mother who also suffers leg pain with dairy. We have isolated it down to the casein protein.

Eggs also cause sinus issues for me.... although they're fine in baked goods.

Check the foods you eat most... those would be the most likely culprits.

HTH

Update
 

As it has been a while now, I thought it would be a good time to update this status thread. As with previous posts, this post is a condensed version of information as it relates to the past few months, but is still rather lengthy.

I have continued to “tweak” my vitamin/nutrient regimen, adding/deleting/modifying supplements and dosages as research continues, and continuing to provide my doctors with updates. I feel this is turning into a never-ending task with trying to find the right combinations of nutrients to alleviate the side effects/damage and continues to be extremely time consuming (see “Commentary” below). My current regimen is as follows and has not changed considerably within the past several weeks:

As mentioned previously, I was put on Toprol XL for hypertension and stayed on that drug for a few months. Eventually however I got the impression that the Vitamin D intake was helping with the hypertension and I eventually weaned myself off of that drug. I then began taking magnesium taurate again. Thus far blood pressure has remained pretty well under control.

…

Also as mentioned previously, Acetyl-L-Carnitine (along with Alpha-Lipoic Acid added shortly after) has helped with many of the “neurological” problems (perhaps more accurately defined as neuropsychological problems), which were brought on by the medications. I had experienced significantly reduced mentation, intense “brain fog”, and chronic fatigue (both mentally and physically) for the better part of the past several years. This in itself had been excruciatingly debilitating. The most interesting thing regarding starting these supplements (ALC and ALA) was an almost immediate (within 1-2 days) significant attenuation of the intense “brain fog”. Prior research regarding supplements had indicated to me that it usually takes a period of time before any positive effects can be felt. Through continued study and research, I have learned that carnitine and lipoate are two substances critical to mitochondrial function and energy production at the cellular level (ATP production via fatty acid oxidation within the Krebs Cycle, etc.). I chose Acetyl-L-Carnitine (acetyl ester of L-carnitine) instead of “regular” L-Carnitine as I had read it crosses the blood-brain barrier better.

Another extremely interesting finding I uncovered is the apparent direct relationship between carnitine deficiency (or abnormal metabolism) and the very undesirable/dangerous lipid Lipoprotein(a), or Lp(a).

Here are a couple more information links regarding Lipoprotein(a):
http://www.lipid.org/clinical/patients/1000002.php
http://www.preventive-cardiology.com...rotein%20a.htm

Recall via a previous post in this thread that my Lipoprotein(a) level was over three times the high cutoff point as referenced by the lab http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/at...8&d=1162756782.

The following Medline studies document this apparent direct relationship between carnitine deficiency (or abnormal metabolism) and elevated Lipoprotein(a):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum

The following quotes are from the first study above:
It should be noted that I am not overweight, do not smoke, drink, or otherwise have an unusual lifestyle or diet that should predispose a lipid value of this level.

The following Medline study also stresses that certain Conditionally Essential Nutrients (CENs) become essential nutrients, comparable to vitamins, under physiologically stressful conditions and medical practitioners need to be knowledgeable of this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum

…

Regarding the constant headaches, “dullness”, and strange sensations in the forehead and surrounding area, these have continued and I have found nothing as yet that seems to provide much help. I had been put on various medications for pain over the past several months such as Neurontin (Gabapentin), Lyrica (Pregabalin), and Flexeril (Cyclobenzaprine), but none of these seemed to help.

Through further study and research, including anatomy of the head and scalp, I was able to determine the source of the headaches. The pain primarily tracks along the Ophthalmic branches of the Trigeminal Nerves (5th set of cranial nerves) in the area of the Supraorbital Nerves. Therefore, it appears that I have Supraorbital Neuralgia, probably of the “atypical” type. As apparently with all cranial nerves, the supraorbitals (trigeminals) are paired, and the right set of nerves appears to be more damaged than the left. After sharing this information with my doctor, I have recently been receiving nerve block injections. These have provided some relief, but don’t seem to last very long. I am also experimenting with topical anesthetic cremes prepared by a local compounding pharmacy.

I also received acupuncture for this condition for a good amount of time, but this didn’t seem to help very much either. The acupuncturist (OMD doctor) was however quite knowledgeable regarding nutrition and supplements. Even with the recommendations he provided, he could not order blood tests to confirm any additional deficiencies. OMDs, as well as apparently most other practitioners (other than MDs), are not allowed to order blood tests where I live. (I think this is a tragedy, see “Commentary” below).

…

I have recently found a couple labs, in addition to SpectraCell http://www.spectracell.com/, that perform nutritional/metabolic type testing. These labs have test profiles that are even more comprehensive than SpectraCell (cover more amino acids, minerals, etc.). I am negotiating with my doctor(s) for additional tests:

Metametrix Clinical Laboratory http://www.metametrix.com
Genova Diagnostics http://www.gdx.net

…

Through all of my research I have now amassed several hundred web links relating to evidence based vitamin/supplement research (mostly links to Medline/PubMed studies, etc.) categorized via nutrient type. I have documented many in this forum so far and will plan to continue to add information as time permits.


===

Commentary (subject to editing):
----------------------------------

With all due respect to the medical community, my experiences over the past several years leads me to believe that there is a severe lack of knowledge of nutritional aspects of health with many (most?) medical doctors in the United States. I have taken every drug and followed every recommendation given and continued to decline. Amazingly part of my “treatment” included “therapy” and the use of various psychotropic drugs. I told every doctor that I believed the problems were due to the medications I was already taking and the response was always (in round-about ways) that this was not possible. In the history of the world, does anyone know of a case where “therapy” and adding more drugs solved significant drug-induced vitamin/nutrient deficiencies? :rolleyes: Clearly drug-induced nutrient depletions/deficiencies appear to be the root cause of all of the aforementioned issues. It was not until I had spent the better part of the last 3-4 years on the internet researching (and dealing with severe “brain fog”, etc.), finally finding information that began to explain my symptoms, taking this evidence into the doctors, and (for the most part) requesting the appropriate tests. Fortunately the doctor I’m seeing now appears open to dealing with nutritional health, but I am still taking copies of Medline studies, etc. in with me to back up everything that I discuss.

I do not blame the doctors as all were very intelligent and I believe they did all they knew to do. I believe the responsibility rests squarely with the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for failing (or refusing) to provide guidance for nutritional intake with the use of prescription drugs. The following is a quote from pp. 10-11 of the Drug-Induced Nutrient Depletion Handbook, 2nd Edition, of which I own (this book, written by four RPhs (Registered Pharmacists), one being a PhD, appears to now be discontinued from the Publisher, but information may still be found here http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/sh...postcount=14):

With the evidence based information that I have collected and stored here http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/sh...5&postcount=14, there should be no question of the importance of these issues. Although it might be argued that the majority of the drugs I have taken are as yet “undocumented”, with the research of the pharmacology/action of the primary drugs I have taken over the long-term and corresponding correlations to other drugs (documented within the first post of this thread), I believe I have provided ample evidence as to the “cause and effect”. Also, with the FDA adopting processes such as “collecting funds directly from the drug manufacturers”, for example as referenced http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/sh...95&postcount=6 and http://www.fdastudy.com/, it makes one wonder if the “foxes are paying the chickens for permission to guard the coop”.

Please do not misunderstand. As stated previously, I am not against the use of prescription drugs. In fact I still need them in order to sleep. The issue, as I have clearly referenced, is the apparent failure of the responsible government entity to provide guidance in an area in which the amount of evidence appears overwhelming. Please note that I have provided detailed documentation of all associated items.

…

All of these issues over the years have taken a toll on myself and my family. I have been unable to work for the past several years, have spent many thousands of dollars seeing doctors, getting “therapy”, etc., have depleted a substantial portion of my life’s savings, and it may have destroyed my previous professional career. I have also spent the past few years of my life (full time as I have felt like it) researching why I continued to have these issues. I had considered applying for disability, but having been without a solid diagnosis and reading other “horror stories” of people waiting for years and still not getting approved, it seemed likely that this would be an uphill battle. Perhaps I may now have the evidence needed, I’m not sure.

…

Any comments regarding any of this would be appreciated, especially from people with backgrounds in medicine, biochemistry, life sciences, etc. Any additional recommendations regarding supplements would also be appreciated.

Won't get any argument from me.
 

I believe you are on to something, and also agree that nutrient depletion due to pharmaceuticals is a bigger problem than most realize, and that most doctors are not well-versed in nutrition at all.

Though I'm sure others will be along to comment, the only thing I noticed in your list of supplements that might need some tweaking is tha you seem to have a low dose of alpha lipoic acid if you are seeking a synergistic effect with the carnitine for control of neurological issues. Most of the studies on this from Europe--Germany in particular, where it is a prescription substance--show optimal effects at does in the 600-1200mg/day range (although in a lot of studies this is accomplished intravenously--there is less support for salutary effects of oral supplementation). It is true that one can take lower doses if one is taking the R-lipoic form--the ration usually cited is a 6:1 to 10:1 exchange.

Unless you have other issues--intolerance of the acidity, or blood sugar issues (lipoic has considerable blood glucose downregulating effects, and is an intriguing possibility for diabetics looking to get off meds) you might want to try bumping it up a bit when you are taking alpha lipoic. I have found that 100mg R-lipoic does seem to roughly correspond to about 600mg alpha lipoic. Weight does have to be factored in--I am 210 lbs., so those smaller may need less.

This is a great post.
 

Thanks for keeping us up to date, west1.

Your perseverance is starting to pay off.

Your supplement list is well thought out.

I'd further suggest you put those testing labs links into Useful Websites here
so others can find them easily.

Also any links you can share that you feel can help others, please share those too!

Drug induced nutrient depletions are a huge factor in the loss of quality of life in this country.

And there is a new book out...called the Side Effect Bible by Frederic Vagnini MD... which is a bit
newer than the Pelton/Ross text. It is less technical but has some newer data in it. It is targeted
more for the layman too, but is not expensive. I got mine at Amazon.

Thanks
 

Thanks to those who have commented.

I have read over what I have written above many times attempting to find any possible errors in logic, but can find none. The evidence is solid. I guess I am just amazed that something like this could happen. Note that I had already begun taking certain vitamins before any tests were even run, so certain values were most likely even worse than documented, and I’m sure it had been that way for years. After going for years (all the way back to 1999) not knowing why the drugs were making me sick, it all makes sense now.

I trust references such as the Drug-Induced Nutrient Depletion Handbook, which I have based much of my logic on, as the authors acquired all information from Medline. All referenced abstracts are even included in the book!

Additional Test Results
 

After continued nerve block injection treatments with only temporary partial relief of the neuralgia, my neurologist referred me to another doctor (MD) who specializes in nutrition and environmental medicine. This was an excellent referral as this doctor is familiar with all of the aforementioned labs/tests (e.g. SpectraCell, Metametrix, Genova) and appears to very well understand my description of symptoms (I wish I had known about this doctor back in 1999 after the initial onset of drug “side-effect” symptoms). This doctor was open to ordering additional testing from the aforementioned labs, however unfortunately my insurance doesn’t cover this doctor and most of the tests from these labs are rather expensive. It was suggested that I get a hair mineral analysis done. This is a relatively inexpensive set of tests and covered additional minerals that I had not yet been tested for. Needless to say, the results turned out to be quite surprising:

http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/at...5&d=1178031264
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/at...6&d=1178031343
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/at...7&d=1178031401
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/at...8&d=1178031438

The doctor was mainly concerned about the elevated aluminum and arsenic levels and recommended that these be targeted before working on the other “non-toxic” minerals. I am now on an EDTA chelation regimen using this product (I am getting the chelator from the doctor and not from this web site, more details below in my updated vitamin/nutrient regimen). Per mrsd’s post here http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/sh...edta#post72949, I have also included some additional chromium.

I have been attempting to learn more about toxic metals and have collected a number of web links, however any input from anyone would (as always) be appreciated. From what I have learned, it is my understanding that elevated levels of toxic metals are not commonly diagnosed in the U.S. and is generally believed to happen mostly to people working in specific industries or working with certain chemicals. Aluminum is fairly ubiquitous and exists in numerous products (incl. antiperspirants, antacids, etc.), but the body can supposedly excrete aluminum relatively efficiently in most cases. Arsenic is used in certain pesticides, treated lumber, and can be absorbed by other means, but elevated arsenic is supposedly not very common. I have not worked in the metallurgy industry in the past. I have used a few pesticides/chemicals around the home (following all safety information), but none that I know of with arsenic as the active ingredient (based on the labels). It is my understanding however that deficiencies and/or imbalances in nutritional minerals (and possibly vitamins also) can over time cause a person to absorb toxic metals much more readily than otherwise would be absorbed. I have of course had various long-term vitamin/nutrient depletions/deficiencies (drug-induced), as previously documented in this thread. Note the high hair zinc (indicative of cellular zinc deficiency) that is consistent with the zinc deficiency documented last year in the SpectraCell tests (http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/at...9&d=1162758249 and http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/at...&d=1162758307). It appears the zinc supplementation over the past several months hasn’t done much good (absorption perhaps blocked by the toxic metals).

It is my understanding that there may be some differences in opinion between conventional/allopathic and complementary/alternative medicine regarding the value of “nutritional” hair analysis, but both sides appear to agree on the value of toxic metal hair analysis. Also there may not (yet) be a universal standard that all labs follow for reference ranges, but it is my understanding that this lab (Doctor’s Data, Inc.) has been providing hair testing longer and has more experience than most (if not all) labs that perform this testing.

…

While continuing to search for additional information on neuralgia/neuropathy (prior to receiving the hair analysis results), I came across information on some additional supplements that might help. Most of the following information is related to diabetic neuropathy and although I have not technically been diagnosed with diabetes, the previous SpectraCell Glucose-Insulin Interaction test (http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/at...9&d=1162758249 and http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/at...0&d=1162758307) was near borderline. Along with other nutrients, this information stresses the importance of Omega 6 based Gamma-Linolenic Acid (GLA). Of the 3 main oils that contain GLA (borage, black currant, evening primrose), borage oil appears to contain the highest concentration:

http://www.larrylands.com/lark/TR12_...-Nutrients.PDF
http://www.geocities.com/bsy53/dn/neuropat.html
http://www.fatsforhealth.com/library...s/diabetes.php
http://www.fatsforhealth.com/library...s_Diabetes.php
http://www.sbrc.ca/ncarm/PDF/Borage%...l%20Report.pdf

This reference http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...cle/001407.htm states:
…

The following is my current/updated regimen. This is a LOT of supplements and I hope I can cut down on some of them eventually. As always, any input is greatly appreciated! :)