NeuroTalk Support Groups

NeuroTalk Support Groups (https://www.neurotalk.org/)

- Bipolar Disorder (https://www.neurotalk.org/bipolar-disorder/)

- - angry (https://www.neurotalk.org/bipolar-disorder/109212-angry.html)

Ask her about her role as therapist. How does she she herself?

Dear Bobby,

Can you talk to her?
Maybe ask her what she sees as her role.
And then for example, tell her you do not need her for instructions. Or, for that matter, rules. We've got enough rules.
Let her know that you are working on being compassionate toward yourself and others and forcing yourself to bathe and shower everyday is not compatible with that.
Tell her what your focus IS.

Let her know exactly how she is helping and how she is not.
Tell her what you do need her for.
Give her suggestions on what you need help with.

Basically, redirect her and give her a different focus.
Maybe the both of you can find a way for her to actually help you.

M.

I'm still astonished by this and can't get it out of my head

Bobby,

That would be so cool if wearing clean clothes every day would help. What an idea to consider that wearing clean clothes would help with bipolar depression. How did she come up with that? :eek:

Is she actually an idiot? :mfr_wha:
'Sorry not being helpful here.

Work with her. Think of this as a teachable moment. It will take some energy but it will be worth it in the long run.

I'm going to bed.

M.

is therapist idiot? no. relationship need work? yes.

Dear Bobby,

i had started a longer reply to you last night but got interrupted. now i find myself a little uninspired. i don't feel like i can say it in two words.

HOWEVER, FWIW

Quote:

That would be so cool if wearing clean clothes every day would help. What an idea to consider that wearing clean clothes would help with bipolar depression. How did she come up with that?

:( The same way lots of professionals do! This is not the discovery of the century, it is good clinical practice to encourage good personal hygiene. And other personal routines. As for the method of "encouragement" used, that is another kettle of fish.

I personally DO NOT think your therapist is an idiot!

I personally DO think that wearing clean clothes and showering regularly can, YES, help bipolar disorder. (once a day is a negotiable example of regularity, is how i see it.)

I am a bit irritated right now because LOTS AND LOTS of STUFF PEOPLE HAVE GONE GAGA over - links to self-help etc that have been posted on this forum - talk about how having a routine etc, getting physical exercise etc, help. We all "Thank" those articles when they get posted and give advice... take a walk, a warm bath... bla bla bla. some articles are more aggressive than others, about getting up dressing up showing up etc... putting on makeup??? :rolleyes:
Now suddenly people are flipping out here over the same things?
Aren't we throwing out the infamous baby with the dreaded bathwater here?
Consistency anyone?

Bobby,

If you were able to do those things daily/regularly, i do believe you would feel better... gradually. Self-grooming has a psychological impact. It won't make you thinner, but self-grooming is an act of love, of physical commitment to oneself... in a "body is your temple" sort of way. It could help you not hate your body as much for however much adipose tissue it might have gathered.

Getting off Zyprexa was not a matter of luck by the way. After I went up that last clothing size I told my pdoc right away, "look i keep packing on more weight, and i'm to the point of being uncomfortable with myself - I don't want to gain another ounce because then i am really going to hate my body." He took me OFF it immediately, leaving it for use only over a few days for more acute states. He got my hating my body was going to hurt my moods in the end, no matter how well the med worked otherwise.

It doesn't sound like your T expects you to make changes gradually?

What i see as the more likely problem is your being asked to do too much too fast, considering ALL of your situation. Sure i think it would help (if you could get there), but being something unreasonable (for now) it is just plain discouraging, counterproductive. In this sense, the suggestions, to this degree, in the here and now, are not helpful to you at all - i do agree with that 100%.

It's like the old Nike ad: "JUST DO IT." like the old Nike ad. I hate that ad. It so does not work with depression for me - it's like, if i could do this stuff, i wouldn't be in therapy!!! But occasionally someone else who had (BAD) depression told me it hadn't worked for them but it was working at some point. I think it depends on a lot of subtle aspects too. And I don't personally care for the word rules in this context but i don't know how that came up.

Sometimes a therapist will make a first attempt to spur the patient - then, if it doesn't work, other kinds of approaches are made. That is what could be happening.

I think it's absolutely fine for you to be angry and the fact that you feel totally misunderstood and your situation misunderstood needs to be brought to her attention very very clearly - and perhaps repeatedly. I suspect your physical difficulties are likely being under-estimated. One thing i like about this woman is that she sees potential in you and is trying to bring it out. You know, even your anger is a psychologically active and not passive response - which is good. Go with the anger... take it from there.

I had to work with my therapist on various things - and with some the confrontation was hard on me and it took several attempts. other times not so hard but was almost ready to give up when he finally got it. the thing is no relationship is going to be smooth-sailing. and if you like this person, i think it is worth sharing your anger with her.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mari (Post 594742)

Work with her. Think of this as a teachable moment. It will take some energy but it will be worth it in the long run.

i really think this is what it's all about right now.

It is of course always up to you if you want to change therapists at any time. All i can say is no therapist is perfect, and liking this one as a person is a good sign. I have had huge objections about my therapist, questioned his competence and all - and thought about terminating on several occasions - but usually the imperfections "matter more" when he has upset me somehow. He is good in some ways. He is not as good in others. He is a good person however and if i started with someone else everything i have "worked out" relationshipwise with him, would have to be re-established. Working on the relationship is a big part of therapy, and the better that gets, the better help you will get.

I hope i haven't upset you. i am trying to be totally frank and then of course you may not agree with what i say but i don't want to just post reactionary stuff on your therapist even if that might be a comfort right now, like a statement of being on your side and where your T is on some other side. I AM on your side, regardless what you do with your therapist.

You hang in there. Keep reading and hanging out with your kitties. :) I'm very glad to hear about your breakthrough with the fear of death and God - that is really huge. Good luck with the Celexa - i took it for a while you know. it was ok, i mean nothing awful with it, certainly no weight gain, and it was effective. i hope the same for you.

love

~ waves ~

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mari (Post 594731)

Yes i didn't realize it but i am working on being compassionate finally to myself after all these years. My close friend thought that in older age it was a time for giving. That got me furious because like you since I was a very young child, I started with the giving and the neglecting. Who knows maybe not wanting to bath frequently is a rebellion although the thought of it is still stressful. The crappy thing is that I do feel very compassionate most of the time towards others and I want to help. At this age and stage I can't figure out how and I feel so empty. So far it doesn't feel good to try to feel compassionate towards yourself. It feels selfish and self absorbed and makes me realize how alone I am. That doesn't make sense either. I now have a therapist and a psychiatrist. I have a woman who comes in to clean and she is even cooking for me twice a week at .75 a hour courtesy of the department of aging. She is a sparkling gem. On Friday she even tried to cook some domican republic food that she bought in a store and was going to have for her own meals. I give her a lot of things but still feel guilty at her hard work while I am doing nothing. I mentioned my friend Robert who has been walking me around the block with wonder dog Mickey. He thinks I should get a dog which would force me to go outside and walk better and he probably thinks the responsibility would be good for me. I am tormented over this. What if the doggy got sick. It would mean more vet bills. Also I went through the heart ache of Snowball being sick most of his life and then dying young. I wouldN'T trade a minute of having that incredible deep souled kitty cat in my life. What a gift from God. Then I went through the hell of Morgy having bone cancer. He handled it so nobly.
Now I am just so confused. I keep on getting flooded with dreams. I have no idea what they are telling me. The therapist doesn't do dream analysis. I tell her I have terrible problems sleeping,-a lot of times I just get three hours- and the medications don't help the depression. I AM SO CONFUSED. I DON'T KNOW WHAT I WANT TO WORK ON. EVERYTHING IS SUCH A MESS AND I FEEL I HAVE NO DIRECTION EXCEPT TO TRY TO LOSE WEIGHT AND TO GET BACK INTO BETTER SHAPE SO I CAN WALK MORE THAN AROUND THE BLOCK.
bOBBY

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mari (Post 594742)

i giggled at your response. it would be cool if we could just do something external and then feel peace of mind. I think we have to get rid of the ego to have peace of mind but then how would we defend ourselves and separate when somebody is giving good advice or easy advice. You are right this is a teachable moment. What shall I teach her? How it feels to be bipolar and have had different therapists and feel still so misunderstood.
Bobby

Quote:

Originally Posted by waves (Post 594756)

Dear Bobby,

i had started a longer reply to you last night but got interrupted. now i find myself a little uninspired. i don't feel like i can say it in two words.

HOWEVER, FWIW

:( The same way lots of professionals do! This is not the discovery of the century, it is good clinical practice to encourage good personal hygiene. And other personal routines. As for the method of "encouragement" used, that is another kettle of fish.

I personally DO NOT think your therapist is an idiot!

I personally DO think that wearing clean clothes and showering regularly can, YES, help bipolar disorder. (once a day is a negotiable example of regularity, is how i see it.)

I am a bit irritated right now because LOTS AND LOTS of STUFF PEOPLE HAVE GONE GAGA over - links to self-help etc that have been posted on this forum - talk about how having a routine etc, getting physical exercise etc, help. We all "Thank" those articles when they get posted and give advice... take a walk, a warm bath... bla bla bla. some articles are more aggressive than others, about getting up dressing up showing up etc... putting on makeup??? :rolleyes:
Now suddenly people are flipping out here over the same things?
Aren't we throwing out the infamous baby with the dreaded bathwater here?
Consistency anyone?

Bobby,

If you were able to do those things daily/regularly, i do believe you would feel better... gradually. Self-grooming has a psychological impact. It won't make you thinner, but self-grooming is an act of love, of physical commitment to oneself... in a "body is your temple" sort of way. It could help you not hate your body as much for however much adipose tissue it might have gathered.

Getting off Zyprexa was not a matter of luck by the way. After I went up that last clothing size I told my pdoc right away, "look i keep packing on more weight, and i'm to the point of being uncomfortable with myself - I don't want to gain another ounce because then i am really going to hate my body." He took me OFF it immediately, leaving it for use only over a few days for more acute states. He got my hating my body was going to hurt my moods in the end, no matter how well the med worked otherwise.

It doesn't sound like your T expects you to make changes gradually?

What i see as the more likely problem is your being asked to do too much too fast, considering ALL of your situation. Sure i think it would help (if you could get there), but being something unreasonable (for now) it is just plain discouraging, counterproductive. In this sense, the suggestions, to this degree, in the here and now, are not helpful to you at all - i do agree with that 100%.

It's like the old Nike ad: "JUST DO IT." like the old Nike ad. I hate that ad. It so does not work with depression for me - it's like, if i could do this stuff, i wouldn't be in therapy!!! But occasionally someone else who had (BAD) depression told me it hadn't worked for them but it was working at some point. I think it depends on a lot of subtle aspects too. And I don't personally care for the word rules in this context but i don't know how that came up.

Sometimes a therapist will make a first attempt to spur the patient - then, if it doesn't work, other kinds of approaches are made. That is what could be happening.

I think it's absolutely fine for you to be angry and the fact that you feel totally misunderstood and your situation misunderstood needs to be brought to her attention very very clearly - and perhaps repeatedly. I suspect your physical difficulties are likely being under-estimated. One thing i like about this woman is that she sees potential in you and is trying to bring it out. You know, even your anger is a psychologically active and not passive response - which is good. Go with the anger... take it from there.

I had to work with my therapist on various things - and with some the confrontation was hard on me and it took several attempts. other times not so hard but was almost ready to give up when he finally got it. the thing is no relationship is going to be smooth-sailing. and if you like this person, i think it is worth sharing your anger with her.

i really think this is what it's all about right now.

It is of course always up to you if you want to change therapists at any time. All i can say is no therapist is perfect, and liking this one as a person is a good sign. I have had huge objections about my therapist, questioned his competence and all - and thought about terminating on several occasions - but usually the imperfections "matter more" when he has upset me somehow. He is good in some ways. He is not as good in others. He is a good person however and if i started with someone else everything i have "worked out" relationshipwise with him, would have to be re-established. Working on the relationship is a big part of therapy, and the better that gets, the better help you will get.

I hope i haven't upset you. i am trying to be totally frank and then of course you may not agree with what i say but i don't want to just post reactionary stuff on your therapist even if that might be a comfort right now, like a statement of being on your side and where your T is on some other side. I AM on your side, regardless what you do with your therapist.

You hang in there. Keep reading and hanging out with your kitties. :) I'm very glad to hear about your breakthrough with the fear of death and God - that is really huge. Good luck with the Celexa - i took it for a while you know. it was ok, i mean nothing awful with it, certainly no weight gain, and it was effective. i hope the same for you.

love

~ waves ~

your thoughtful post upset me a little but it had a lot of wisdom. I think i do feel i am waging a battle with her now. She is Greek and was raised in Egypt. Right now i feel I would rather ask her what it was like being raised in Egypt.
Even Dr. Moussavian told me that taking a shower every day is invigorating.
I really do feel like a child rebelling. I have always had trouble with authority and took a test my last year at Penn as to what profession I should go into.
I came out high on becoming a fireman because they are the most anti authority. Right now I really don't feel connected to anybody. I felt so connected with my schnauzer Morgy and my kitty cat Snowball. Right now I feel so isolated. A lot of the time, I feel I HAVE GIVEN UP
LOVE
bOBBY

hi again...

i wish i could have said things without even upsetting you that little bit. :( i did the best i could but i was afraid of that all the same. i thought about not posting but i did my best and hoped the good would outweigh the bad. ... i'm sorry for upsetting you. :o anyway, thank you for the feedback and i am glad what i said was useful to some extent. :o :hug:

i have felt like i was waging a battle with my T before. LOL. Maybe you should ask her what it was like to be raised in Egypt... perhaps she will ask why you ask LOL that would be a typical therapist response ;) ... but even so, she might answer you, and it could be interesting provide insights... i have sometimes asked personal questions before, to know "where the T is coming from" ... i don't mean geographically lol but cultural aspects can certainly have an impact!

I want to say, THE FACT you are walking around the block is itself REALLY REALLY GOOD. It will take time sure but you will get stronger. And when you get physically stronger and you WILL be able to walk MORE than that. it takes time to build that up - but it will happen.

And I agree about excessive showering being bad for the skin - frequency depends very much on the climate and degree of physical activity and type of skin you have. I recall you have sensitive skin. This is where "regularity" i think is a better (i hate to use the word) "rule" than "every day." And even then, you build up from where you cannot do, to doing a little, then a little more... the old baby steps thing.

one thing you can point out to your therapist is that you ARE working on the hygiene thing - by taking the walks, because showering is exhausting and you are still in the "acquire stamina" stage. And assert that in any case, you get to decide your "ideal frequency" in terms of your skin, etc - not her. That can apply to clothing too especially if you do not move around much, do not sweat much, and have multiple layers.

as for the authority thing. well, i get that too. yesterday my dad walked into the kitchen and asked my mom about something being done or what. and i was like i'd hate to have him for a boss. i doubt i'd last a full day before he fired me for incompetence or i quit out of anger. Because THE number one way to block me is to BREATHE DOWN MY NECK about something, set up artificial RULES and keep reminding me of them and of deadliens. did i mention i didn't like that word? it's not overall rules i so much dislike, it's when people try to shove them in my face.

if you feel like she is shoving stuff in your face, she needs to hear that from you, and she needs to know about the authority/rebellion thing. if you already told her - tell her again. ;)

one last thing. when i have felt really really upset with my pdoc/T, i have on occasion taken breaks - disclosed or undisclosed (sulks). i don't know if you have a frequency obligation for visits with her for seeing Dr. M. also it depends on how the anger is... the flipside is when too much time passes, the confrontation may not be as effective because the emotional charge is not there, and that is part of the message in therapy too.

and i know what you mean about not having money to spend to go out and do stuff... anything... every little thing costs money anyway. i don't even contact old coworkers or former friendly acquaintances i'd like to see, because most would be available at night - and it is unsafe for me to come home with public trans, and i can't do the cab fare any more. not even once in a while. i live too far out of the city.

i have been very passive for several years now and it makes me feel desperate. the walks will help with that too. they really will. walking helps your brain chemicals. :) and you can only do what you can do - good job, and keep doing it. it will increase. (and most likely you will start losing weight after a while, too!)

love
~ waves ~

p.s. believe it or not the last confrontation with my therapist involved positive reinforcement/pressure. i got angry but also very hurt/upset and had to take a break. but we sorted it out. he listened. i hope your therapist listens to you. GOOD LUCK with this. :hug::hug::hug:

Taking a shower everyday requires a change in habits, creating a routine.
I thrive on routines and have never gotten in the habit of showering everyday.
In fact I have to force myself to shower.
I don't know what it is that I resist...for one it is the effort that is involved, I consider it a luxury using up all of the hot water, have long hair that takes time to wash and then dry, self care items....
I wish I could jump in the shower and take a quick shower, some people can jump in there and spend 5 minutes. It takes a long time for me.
In fantasy land, If I could get up in the mornings then I could take a quick shower and get ready, hair all fixed nicely....but I am not normal.
I don't know....I sympathize with you...maybe you could do a trial run...say that I will take a shower in the evening for one week and see how I feel.
Maybe I could do this myself.....
bizi
they say it takes 3 weeks to make a habit.....
I am not motivated to change I guess.....

Your pets / walking

Dear Bobby,
I don't have pets and never had.
When I was a child we had some outside cats and dogs that I was close to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mymorgy (Post 594774)

He thinks I should get a dog which would force me to go outside and walk better and he probably thinks the responsibility would be good for me. I am tormented over this.

Yes. He wants to help you.
I've seen the studies that having a dog can add years to people's lives by virtue of helping them stay on a schedule.

It could be a very good idea for you.
But you know if you are up to it or not.

You could get an animal who is very healthy and has a strong disposition.

But I can see your concerns because I don't want to deal with that. It would be heart breaking for me. My sis has two rescue dogs. They both get allergies. One is a little worse off -- needing bathing with special soap, twice daily doggy Benadryl, and and so on.

Quote:

The therapist doesn't do dream analysis. I tell her I have terrible problems sleeping,-a lot of times I just get three hours- and the medications don't help the depression. I AM SO CONFUSED. I DON'T KNOW WHAT I WANT TO WORK ON. EVERYTHING IS SUCH A MESS AND I FEEL I HAVE NO DIRECTION EXCEPT TO TRY TO LOSE WEIGHT AND TO GET BACK INTO BETTER SHAPE SO I CAN WALK MORE THAN AROUND THE BLOCK.

Yes, I understand your frustration about dream analysis.
But I don't think that many of them do this.
You could analyze your own dreams by first recording them.
If that is something that helps you, then focus on your dreams.

You do have direction. Loosing weight and walking are very good things.
Ask your tdoc to give you guidance with that. She will help you.
You have to see her anyway. Tell her what you need from her.
These are good because they come from strong desires of your own (not imposed by her.)
I'm glad that you are walking. Do you feel better after you have walked?

Regarding teachable moments:
I think that 90-95% of the time the therapists can go by the training /expereince they have before they see you.
The other 5% of the time they need to stretch.
And we can push them to stretch so that we can benefit from the time with them.
Also, this is off topic -- but only a bit -- by teaching them how to help us, we help them to become better therapists.

M.

Dear Bobby,

Quote:

Originally Posted by mymorgy (Post 594784)

Even Dr. Moussavian told me that taking a shower every day is invigorating.

Of course he thinks it is a good idea. It works for him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mymorgy (Post 594784)

I really do feel like a child rebelling. I have always had trouble with authority and took a test my last year at Penn as to what profession I should go into.
I came out high on becoming a fireman because they are the most anti authority. Right now I really don't feel connected to anybody. I felt so connected with my schnauzer Morgy and my kitty cat Snowball. Right now I feel so isolated. A lot of the time, I feel I HAVE GIVEN UP

I think she pushed some buttons for you.
This is what you get to talk to her about.
Discuss these exact authority issues with her.
Let her do some work instead of spouting stuff that works with 90% of her other patients.

I like firemen too. They "get" it. They are extremely responsible and and follow rules and regulations. Yet they are cowboys in that they can't really take direction. -- at least that is my impression.
Would that work for you? . . . . talking about how you tested and so on? Maybe if she had that info about how you see yourself, she can be more useful to you.

M.