Downton Abbey
 

Hi I would just like to point out

that i have not seen - and will not see Season 3 of Downton Abbey, any time soon.

So far so good, it's been mostly general comments, but i just wanted to request

please would you take care to avoid spoilers from Season 3, thank you.

~ waves ~

Yes they are a really sweet couple, too. I haven't seen too much of Penny yet, but I like Des a lot and he seems like such and incurable romantic... lots of what I like about him.

transitions - puzzles - finale - ehh.. ???arc
 

yes! more sensory boundaries to help the brain section stuff off rather than end up with a giant mishmash.! :rolleyes::cool:

I appreciate the heads up. I have had this suspicion growing, if only because I can't see how they could possibly wrap everything up neatly all together... figure there are going to be loose ends, or ends that are abruptly sawed off if you will, rather than elegantly knotted. However there is always the irrational hope that the writers will pull off something miraculous... or to relate to the show as a whole entity and not something progressive - as Bizi said at an earlier point, they make things up as they go along - does apply to some things, also you have actor negotiations and writers strikes etc... bit different than someone who writes a book, or even a series of books. Yet to the audience it is easy to forget... especially with so many puzzles screaming for answers. So. Thanks, and I will try not to nurture too many expectations.

I think i have shows like that but not having the level of complexity/puzzles present in LOST.

Sorry, you lost me here, on the meaning of "two episode arc" ??? Did you mean no more than two seasons? otherwise I can't think how to interpret this...

I checked for spoilers. Do not read the comments sections
 

Kind of!! :eek:
I'll say. That is two weeks worth but only about 5 days on the show.

Here is a Evangeline Lilly (Kate) on the Lost Season 2 on the Ellen DeGeneres show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qF4rXWhRpqo
Lost is Lilly's first acting job. She was a model in Canada.
She is indeed one of the weakest actors on the show but she is well directed and gets better each season.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQAuzBEple8
Josh Holloway audition tape

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAjQ-hvO-zg
Lost Behind the Scenes. Confidence_Man
Scene discussion about Sawyer
Josh talks. --- . . ."struggle with his own humanity."
. . . a fine line to being the guy you love to hate or the guy that you just fricking hate."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1CQSRvoDv8
Ask LOST: Naveen Andrews - Lost
Naveen Andrews (Sayid) out of character talks briefly about his character. I like his London accent.
OMG --- today I think I am in love with Naveen after watching that little clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zl66AjElD7I
Lost- Meet the Characters Part3 Claire and Shannon and Sayid and Hurley

Also one could look for pod casts of the writers talk about the season. Sometimes they talk pre-season or midway through. Yes, I was obsesing. But I do not feel like looking for them now.

At one point earlier tonight I was able to find the first two minutes of the pilot --- where Jack wakes up in the forest. But youtube wants me to sign in now. It is being annoying and asking me if I am old enough to view the content.
Oh. Well. It feels like it is too complicated.

M

Lost!!!!!!!! :D

I was thinking of shows like "The Practice" -- a medical show without too much medical most of the time that at the most took two episodes to wrap up a story line about a patient. Sometimes if it was something that was not real intense (like a love interest), it could simmer a few episodes or get dropped completely and two seasons we see the love interest show up and then at half way through the season, they marry. "The Good Wife" is kind of like that too except after season 2 I stopped watching because the time slot stunk and I got bored even though I watch an episode once in a while.

I feel that for good or ill "Lost" expects a lot out of its audience.
And I can see sometimes how its was described as a cult.
Humans cannot do that. But they can pull out something beautiful and heart warming and somewhat satisfying.

I disagree. In order to sell the series to the network, they had a plan. Their pilot was the most expensive pilot in the history of television.

After season three, they announced that there would only be three more seasons (Season 6 would be the last). Whatever the real reason, at that time they said that they were writing to a specific end (the show was not going to go on and on.) They also said that there would be no re-runs. We got some "re-cap" shows but no repeats.

The writers on "Homeland" (Showtime) talked about how sometimes they put in a detail (like the mole -- on a CIA show) that they might use later. They placed the mole problem in season 1. They might not ever go back to it. Then again, they might if they choose and a situation calls for it.

What the writers of "Lost" have done is create believable and interesting characters. The actors are working with good material and doing good jobs.
I hated losing characters in season 2. (There was weirdness about two or three actors getting in trouble with DUIs in Hawaii and then being killed off. The writers said that they actors left for other reasons.
The show won Emmys for season 1 and other Emmys and other awards other years.

M

Hi, Bizi,

I found clips from only Season 1 or half way season 2.

I have triple checked for no spoilers.

I guess I should check a fourth time.


;)

:)

It is a captivating show.

M

Captivating indeed!
 

Indeed! And not just for the audience....

For the characters too there is no shortage of captures, captives and captors! :D:cool:

~ waves ~ still devouring transcripts... :rolleyes:

Season 3 Episode 7 “Not in Portland” -- potential spoilers of this episode
 

Yes. Ben was captured. Now he has captured some Losties.


Season 3 Episode 7 “Not in Portland”
Day 73 - Friday, 3 December 2004
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I went back and watched the Nate Fillion episode with the wedding and the surgery stuff. Then I watched Season 3 Episode 7 “Not in Portland” Somehow watching the wedding episode about two or three (?) episodes ago messed up my idea of the narrative.

I like the title of this episode. Alpert says we are not in Portland. I'll say!! The island is far from Portland and so is the activity of the island and its inhabitants.

We see that Juliet is a world-class fertility specialist who helps her sister. Her sister becomes three months p.g. Otherwise I skipped most of the Rachel / Juliet flashback scenes. The medical stuff was intense an episode or two before and while this might not be as intense, I can lighten the load so to speak.
Juliet’s husband has the name of a philosopher -- Edmund Burke, and gets run over by a bus --- her hope she stated aloud the day before.


On the Hydra Island: The operating room stuff goes back and forth with will Jack finish the surgery or won’t he and will Kate go or won’t she? Also, can we trust Juliet or can’t we? And can poor Sawyer get a break from the beatings and smack downs?
We expect more of the Alex and Karl story sometime in the future because so far nothing has happened except we know that Karl is on the "outs" with Ben. It cute to see star crossed lovers work against authority.


Mr. Alpert is a new character who represents a group on the island.


Juliet was promised that she would work for the “Others” for six months.
We learn that they have not been able to travel back and forth since the sky turned blue.
Regarding trusting Juliet: she has disregard for standard medical ethics and agrees to join a shady group for six months. Yet we do see her shoot and kill Pickett so that Kate, Sawyer, and Karl can escape. When she tells Jack that she wants to go home after being there for three plus years, we pretty much believe her.

She can be as violent as any of the Others but hers violence is different maybe. She shoots Pickett is a clean focused shot. She is ruthless but contained in a way. That why is it is hard to get a good “read” on her. She might not be as conniving as Ben but seems to be as equally as free to mess with people’s heads. Maybe I see her as cerebral -- lives in her head as much (or more than) as she does in her actions. Also, she makes her own rules.

How do you feel about Juliet? I mean, even if one believes her, one might see that she has some inconsistencies. And we see that for now she and Jack are somewhat tied to each other.

M

lol actually i didn't remember this... although i just came upon Ben's story.

I've transcripted my way through Season 3. I'm waiting to see the beginning of Season 3 Episode 7 “Not in Portland”, most of which i saw this evening. I had already read the episode over the weekend though. I will probably keep reading - will advise periodically where I am. Then when I get to the end you won't have to worry about spoilers.

I'll still be watching because watching is different. Pre-reading helps defuse some of the violence though.

I liked it too - actually I like a lot of the titles.

haha love how you sum this up. and yes lots of back and forth.

actually, while it keeps you on the edge of your seat, i find rather frustrating the constant toggling of probabilities, possibilities and loyalties from one extreme to another. i am at the point of not buying anything - no expectations - just wait. i think plot developments can be done differently than toggling...

be back repeat is starting now...

Ben captured in Season 2
 

Season 2 Episodes --- (approx) One of Them, The Whole Truth, and Lockdown. ???

Ben is taken prisoner by the Losties. He pretends to be Henry Gale.
Michael helps him escape.

Later in the medical shows in Season 3, Ben mentions the roil reversal to Jack.

M

Hi,

The toggling keeps up I think. I hate so much back and forth in one episode.

For some reason I used to see the characters as on the spectrum of good and bad.
Goodness and badness seems to be meaningful to the island. By the end of season we can see for example that Jack is going to be a good character. Sayid is good but has done some bad things and might have some reckoning. Same with Eko. Ben seems bad but we know that bad and good are not constant . . ..
Rousseau seems neither good nor bad because she is too alone. Or maybe her aloneness is good. Michael betrays his group for what seems to be a false promise perhaps.

And I guess this matters to me. I will stop trying to think of things this way for purposes of our discussion. There are plenty of other patterns to look for in Lost.

I do need to know in terms of the show, whose truth I can trust. I guess we are supposed to mostly identify with the people on the plane but that is changing as new actors get added to the cast.

====
Not to complicated things but the writers decided that they did not know what to do with Walt so he (and Michael) are only seen a little in the show after season 2 becuase Walt went through a growth spurt and is mentioned as Tall Walt because he is not the same size he would be in island time.
Shooting on the set took place over years ( 2004-2010 (?) and a child like Walt (Malcolm David Kelley) had a chance to basically grow up but the number of days the passengers are on the island is relatively few (101 days I believe).

This is what I saw about Danielle Rousseau as little bit of a Jean-Jacques Rousseau figure:
M

OHH THAT! totally remember that. totally did not think you were referring to that... din occur to me. thought you meant his origins on the island ... but till then he'd said he ws born there - revealed later not to be true.[/QUOTE]

~ waves ~

Right. Ben comes to the island with his dad when he is eight. His father comes to the island for a job with Dharma.

Mari

re: toggling
 

yes. that's just it - too much.

I cut myself off last night to catch the beginning of Not in Portland but then I was tired (then i couldnt' sleep but beside point.) About the toggling - it's a 180. With/against. good/bad. strong/weak. I find this jarring and while it keeps up the vigilance, I think this could have been achieved other ways. Oh some toggling is fine, but there is too much. I would have appreciated more suspicion and gradual divulgence. I am no longer buying into the overt 180 maneuvers, because I just figure that 10 or 20 mins down the line, or next episode, I will see another that will put me facing the same direction as before. Too many 180's, too few 20*-90*gradual shifts.

These 180's are an aspect of the show I actually dislike :eek:, because there are too many for me. After falling for a few "gotchas" I simply mistrust everything and everybody. Is Jacob the Monster? Is the Monster a natural phenomenon? Is Jack a good guy? Does Kate love Jack, Sawyer, both, or neither? Dunno, and I can't trust what I "learn" until the complete end. For all I know Hurley (a person I see so far as altruistic, and mostly gentle) will turn psycho.

Right.
I guess the point of the show is to keep watching.
The rug gets pulled out from under us too many times within the one hour episode or a few episodes later.

M

re: Good vs Bad, loyalties, who CAN we trust? ... empiricism
 

I think it is excellent you put them on a spectrum. LOL.
I would agree. I have been developing the notion of the island as a sort of purgatory. So far, it also seems that The Monster might be seen differently by good v.s. bad people - and might also be more or less vested in destroying one or the other. Locke said he saw a beautiful white light looking at it. Eko says that's not what he saw. At one point WE saw black smoke that approached but did not attack Eko - I was unsure if that was "the" Monster. (I don't know if "The Monster" was perhaps shown in the pilot early on? The transcript said something like "We see the monster in the treeline," at one point but no description was given. I saw several incidents with loudness, rushing, crashing mashed grass/trees, and wide-eyed stares by the Losties, but never actually saw the Monster - if an entity other than the black smoke.) I found the encounter with Jacob similar to those with the "Monster". Danielle asserts that there is no Monster, which I found really intriguing.
Right. Ok, to me, show opens, we are introduced to the protagonists - the Losties. my brain tends automatically to throw them in the "GOOD" basket. I realize I did this because works for most shows, but I realized later, in LOST it doesn't work. (I explain below.)

No need, this is a relevant pattern. I was trying to point out the toggling as mechanism more than the concepts being toggled. We seem to agree it is used more frequently than we'd like. The mechanism is distinct, however, from the concepts it is applied to - such as good and bad. I also mentioned loyalties... these happen on a large and small scale - loyalty within a couple being small scale, loyalty of an individual to a group, or group to group, being large scale. (Btw not implying that intensity goes with scale often the contrary.)

Indeed, who can we trust? At first, we do not know.

Going back to what I said before - with most shows we can "safely" identify with the good guys introduced to us in the beginning. There may be good and bad protagonists, or "good" protagonists which are flawed, but we are usually given background information to identify the "good guys". Even in Dexter, we know that Dexter, however flawed, is our "good guy" for plot purposes.

LOST is interesting, and different, because our protagonists represent a random group of people, not a select group. Thus, some are bound to be more "good" and some more "bad". Probability suggests an even distribution across your good/bad continuum, but the randomness would allow for a complete skewing of that - in either direction. (Btw, I find it hysterical that the Others keep talking about recruiting "good" people and about being the "good guys".)

In Lost, the premise of having a random group of people invalidates any assumptions one would like to make about the crash survivors. Each of them, when we start out, must be logically taken as a tabula rasa, because we have very few deductive elements. The episode entitled thus is apparently about Locke (erhemm!) but can be extended to all the survivors. However the title can also suggest to us, the audience, "You have no clue who you are looking at. You have no/few moral elements by which to assess these people. You cannot tell whom to trust." As we move on... the current events and the flashbacks write on that tablet for us. The more writing we have, the better we can assess the characters, but there is always room for that 180 element...

I believe that would be the empirical approach to character assessment. ;) Go figure. :D

===============
Mari,

Please, tell me if I am getting into this too deep - for you. I don't have to. I don't want for you to end up feeling too involved in it again or burdened by my interpretations and other ramblings.

I am breaking up my posts I hope this makes it easier to answer if you wish, and/or pick and choose what to ignore ;)

~ waves ~

re: Michael
 

I felt sorry for him after a while, although simultaneously angry at what he had done. I got from his story that he had given up Walt (paternity rights) because he was conned into believing it was the best thing for Walt. He continued to care about Walt, but was not permitted to be a part of his life. He sent letters and drawings which were kept from Walt. We find out later that the Others have files on everyone... it wouldn't be a stretch to believe they capitalized on these events to manipulate Michael. Any parent might be subject to such a manipulation, but most especially Michael...

It seemed to me when the Others gave him the choice to betray the Losties or give up his son forever (for the second time)... it drove him mad... he looked crazed and lost to me from the time he came back to camp all the way to when he and Walt took off on the boat. Despite betraying the Losties, he did not acquire loyalty to the Others, and we see clearly his suspicion of them right up to the end. I felt the shootings were out of character - only his crazed look made it believable.

I felt Sayid said it best when he says Michael has been "compromised." choice word. Michael had to make a dreadful compromise. I saw what happened to him as a near-variant of "Sophie's choice" - do this awful thing, or this other awful thing.

haha. yes things like this happen in tv shows - good to know.

~ waves ~

re: Danielle & Jean Jacques Rousseau
 

... especially helping them remain free from the Others.

I poked around and learned a little more about the philosopher Rousseau. These aspects of Rousseau's philosophy would seem consistent with Danielle's role and her general attitude:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/rousseau/
this too:
Her isolation would certainly be a good way to try to escape that dystopia of alienation oppression bla bla bla. hehe.

In her self-enforced isolation and other things, Danielle resembles a romantic heroine.

Waves,

I have recently watched these two episodes and tried to make some notes of the visuals and sounds.
Tonight is the short version:

Season 3 Episode 8 "Flashes Before Your Eyes"
In the pub we hear Cass Elliot's Make Your Own Kind of Music (in earlier episodes as well)
One of my favorite tv episodes ever -- not just on Lost.
Desmond is time traveling.
Desmond loves Penelope.
Penny loves Desmond.
Charlie is concerned about Desmond's ability to see his death.

We can refer to the Beatles here even if the produces did not use the song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBtQM8V8uo4Desmond takes a trolley to the jewelry store
the beatles-ob-la-di, ob-la-da lyrics


In a pod cast the producers said Desmond traveled from 2004 to 1996.


================


Season 3 Episode 9 "Stranger in a Strange Land"

ACK! Major Yuck. This is the worst episode of Lost.
You do not have to take my word for it. After this episode, the producers rethought the whole show and decided to set an end date --- to start writing toward the finale:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange...nge_Land_(Lost)
If fans did not already hate Jack, they did after that episode.

Jack is in the cages.
Sometimes Juliet and Jack smile at each other. He wants the same goal as she -- to get off the island (s) but he seems a little protective of her.

The "sheriff" has a low slow voice. I like her somehow.

I like the canoe banter with Sawyer and Kate. Sawyer talks to Karl. Karl takes off later.

The episode ended with light: --
Sawyer and Kat carrying torches in the woods
Karl with his fire watching stars
Alex watching stars
Juliet and Jack looking to the night stars.

That was a good ending.

I will get to your other comments and issues next time.

M

Yes, the idea of Purgatory works for a little while.

The monster is "seen" in the pilot show when it kills the pilot in the plane and sends him up the tree.
In Season 1 Episode 3 "White Rabbit" Locke sees the smoke monster --- sometimes it is smoke and sometimes it manifests other ways:
"I looked into the eye of this island, and what I saw was beautiful."


I think Eko's was different from other deaths (from the smoke monster or otherwise). I remain confused about him.
Often people like Shannon die after they work out what they came to take care of (I guess that is how this is a kind of purgatory.)

Mari

a few tears
 

W:



========
That is what I get for being obsessive and clicking on ob-la-di, ob-la-da over and over again.

I guess it took me two years and LOST before I re-experienced the song again.

I digress.


M

I'm sorry Mari
 

Dear Mari

I read the whole post before you edited. It was fine, but it's fine also that you edited - whatever you are more comfortable with.

I'm sorry about what you went through... and that rewatching LOST with me ended up bringing these things up for you. I have to say I thought the function you described was really nice. Good for you for taking care of that, I know it must have been hard. I know that entire chapter was and is still very tough for you.

I hope you are not too shaken and that you will be "ok."

Take care. Lots of hugs. :hug::hug::hug:

~ waves ~

Thanks, Waves,

It helped to write it out.

Those are sad memories but I also have good memories.

I am cool with LOST.

M

watched the last episode of downton abby....sigh is all I can say, looking forward to season 4 NEXT YEAR!!!!!
bizi
we will be watching the whole series again shortly.

Bizi,

I saw that episode too.

I liked Season 1 the best. I can go back to that over and over again. Have fun.

Mari

Waves,

Have you seen these two episodes? What did you think?


Season 3 Episode10 Tricia Tanaka Is Dead Day 76

I like this episode because Hurley tries to change his luck. Also, I like the song, Shambala. I am bored with the father issues of many of the characters.

Where is Sayid? I feel that since Desmond showed up we see less of him. Also, if they are both around, they are not often together.

Both of Hurley’s parents are creepy, his father more than his mother.

Sawyer is teaching Jin English:

• I am sorry.
• You were right.
• Those pants don't make you look fat.

Kate, Sayid, and Locke encounter Rousseau on the way to find Jack.


Season 3 Episode 11 Day 77

We have three plots going on again.

The ping pong game is cute. We might not have expected Sawyer to get hustled. Why does Sawyer care about keeping stuff?

I noticed the cats in the Flame and Paris segments.
I was not sure how Sayid's flashback gave us any information about Sayid or LOST except about how much pain was in Sayid's life. We do see him as the sensible one in any of the pairings / groupings.
Locke is goofy at the Flame ---focused on the chess game, even to the point of assisting in blowing the station. Locke expecting the others to follow the compass directions on Eko's stick is pretty cool in a way. I guess no one else had better information (before they encountered Rousseau or Mikhail Bakunin.)
Mikhail somewhat explains the purge -- Darma group taking out the original people on the island (the Others).
We probably learn some mysteries here at the station. Sayid is happy to have a map.
===============================
Next time I intend to respond to your comments up thread.
Mari

Hi Mari - S3 Ep 10
 

And Charlie's destiny. I loved loved loved the scene with the van. It was infectious to see Hurley so happy, and the others joining in after their initial skepticism was overturned by fact. i loved seeing the van go around and around... it was like a dance.

Indeed. There are too many: we have a murdererous abusive daddy, a murder-suicide daddy, an alcoholic-abusive daddy, a conning-narcissist daddy, an alcoholic-narcissist daddy, and absentee daddy, and a mafia-controlfreak daddy. maybe i even missed some.

I think we are supposed to be creeped out, but I find them more ordinary... a bit kooky, but overall saner than the other families.

This was really funny... and so Sawyer-esque.

~ waves ~

S3 Ep 11 - I think this is the last episode I saw?
 

I loved the ping-pong game, especially what Sun & Jin thought up about Sawyer having to give up nick-names for a week if he lost. Sawyer really didn't lose anything, but he had to exercise some constraint, besides it gave everyone else a bit of reprieve from his constant verbal darts. Hurley looked reaaaaal serious at the start of that game. He had a look of determination not present in other circumstances. I had a suspicion of the outcome when he asked about the 11-0 rule.

There was no trickery by the others. It was game - a gamble... Sawyer didn't see it as a gamble, only because he didn't consider that somebody else could be good at ping-pong, let alone better than him. That's pretty arrogant. Sawyer saw it as a hustle but I didn't see it that way, not really. If anybody did any hustling - Sawyer did it to himself. Hurley knew his own skill, but I didn't see anything to make me believe he had the same ridiculously arrogant certainty of winning that Sawyer did.
I never thought it was about the stuff per se. I saw him going for power. His gathering stuff was just a means... the stuff provided bargaining power - leverage to use with anybody else, as needed. There are a few things he cares about. He likes reading. However his attachment has limits - he refuses to take back his girly magazine back when he sees the guy is holding a toilet paper type thing behind it. He gets grossed out. As much as he hated them, he cared about the glasses and was glad when he got those back. He needed those to read.

I like Sayid a lot. He has a lot of integrity. I feel badly that he seems to get "compromised" by a painful loss later on. (I am a lot further along in the transcripts than I am in the show).

=================================

You don't have to if I got too into the philosophy stuff for your taste. I will try to avoid carrying on like that from now on.

One thing I do not like about this show is the amount of "action" guns and violence. There is enough of that as to make it hard to watch, but now I've started I'll watch it to the end. I like the mysteries, the symbolism, the philosophy and psychology. Later there is more some sci-fi. I like that too.

~ waves ~

I do not mind the guns as much as the medicine stuff but the guns are not good either.

The sci-fi-type stuff picks up soon.

The philosophy stuff is good. That is what makes the show fun --- otherwise it is just a show with guns (and medicine).
M

medical stuff
 

Hi Mari

I do not mind the medical stuff, except certain things which upset me. In those cases (there are a few in LOST) I turn the sound low and don't watch and wait till the scene is done. In reading a transcript, I skim through/past it.

~ waves ~

It has been almost 3 years since we watched LOST last....WE are watching lost again season 1 disc 3 ....LOVING IT!
bizi

Do you have a favorite season?
I hated season two and some others that I cannot remember right now.

I still love Des and Penney.
and
Sawyer and Juliet.

Have you seen the actor playing Sawyer (Josh Holloway) in his new T.V. show Intelligence? I do not think it is a good part for him.

He is in a new Arnold Schwarzenegger movie (Sabotage).
I hope it works out for him.

Mari

no I have not seen the new series.so far I am loving season one.
bizi

Tonight we finished watching lost for the 5th time...my memory was terrible almost like watching it all over for the first time. WE watched it off and on for over 6 months.
WE really enjoyed it.
bizi

Bizi, :hug::hug::hug:

I can see why the two of you enjoy the show.
It has great characters and good plot.
And some of the actors are a lot of fun to watch.

Mar