I want to ask your opinion about something that my tdoc suggested that I do for homework this week and that I thought was a bit crazy.

Like a lot of survivors, I have a big problem with shame and self-loathing ... it is something that is very deeply felt for me and is a big part of who I feel I am inside, and it causes a lot of difficulties for me in my day-to-day life.

My tdoc and I have really tried hard to shift the self-hatred and shame that I feel, and slowly I feel that things are improving, but at times, stuff happens in my life that causes these self-loathing feelings to rush to the surface, then things are just so excruciatingly painful for me that it can be very difficult to keep going.

In my session last week, I was talking to my tdoc about my feelings and fears about taking the CPA exam and some other issues I’m having at work, and a question she asked me ended up triggering the shame and self-loathing feelings.

She asked me to bare with her, that she was going to suggest something that may sound really weird and crazy, but that may just help me "change my relationship" to these self loathing feelings, and minimize the power they have on my life.

She asked me first to think of all the things that this shame and self-loathing tells me ... i.e. - all the thoughts that pop into my head when self loathing is very strong. After some time, she asked me what some of them were, and I told her.

Then she asked me to think of a nursery rhyme or a jingle that both she and I would know. I felt stupid at that one, and when I didn’t say anything, she suggested "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star", and I said I knew that one.

And then - and this comes the really weird part - she asked me to put the words of shame and self-loathing to the tune of Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, and to sing it with her!

Now I was horrified and embarrassed by all of this ... and when I just drew further and further into myself to escape from the situation, she started to lead by example and used some of the things that I had told her that go through my head when shame is really strong, and she started singing those words to the tune of the nursery rhyme!

Now I can’t begin to tell you how horrible this made me feel. I think she was aware that I wasn’t finding this idea very helpful, but she explained that people have certain negative "schemas" that they develop from a very young age and that continue to affect them ... and that through putting the words of something very painful to a nursery rhyme, you can change your relationship with these "schemas" / ways of thinking/feeling about yourself, and not let them have so much power over you.

She came up with this task just before the end of the session, so we never really had time to talk about it too much ... but she did give me homework to work on my "self loathing song" and that she and I would continue with it next week in the session.

Now am I the only one who feels that this task is incredibly insensitive and dismissive of something painful that a person may feel so deeply? I don’t understand how my tdoc would think that this task could be helpful for anyone who has been traumatized in the past and has left over 'baggage' (for want of a better word) from those experiences. And I can’t believe that she suggested a task like this for ME of all people, when she knows that shame and self-loathing make me feel so incredibly self conscious, and then to put those feelings into a song!

I am just beyond horrified right now ... but I wanted to get your thoughts about this before I consider writing an email to her telling her what I think about her idea.

Hi,
It's ok if you don't like the idea.
And it is good to ask her about it.
But so far she has been good to you.
And her idea might work when you are ready to try it.

There could possibly be lots to gain from her idea.

My tdoc might say something like that too.
My tdoc thinks it is good to look at something differently than how we have been looking at it.
She says we need to grow new pathways in the brain. And she says we really can do that.

It seems that your pdoc is trying to take away the power of the shame that you feel. By putting it into Twinkle Twinkle Little Star you can make the shame manageable. Is that kind of what she is talking about?

I don't think that your tdoc is making this up as she is going along. Ask her if she has used this before and if it worked.


M.

I agree with you BJ. I am Jewish but right now I am thinking of the song Jesus loves me this I know for the Bible tells me so.....Somehow i think shame and self loathing can only be eradicated through faith...and maybe forgiveness of the other. It is so hard being bipolar. Our defense system is so weak and we feel so strongly....i wonder if we do get in touch with feelings that are buried deep within all of us and are part of facing how imperfect we are.
Bobby

I think i might feel it as dismissive also BJ, so i understand, but i also don't think that was the intent at all. but i will say, someone taking up and singing MY horrible feelings to a nursery rhyme would feel horrid and insensitive to me. on the spot, i would probably cover up and giggle about it... then i would leave and hide and cry miserably and feel misunderstood and abandoned... then i would become very angry. i would have felt violated. in any case, my reaction would be very bad, though it might not be seen in the immediacy or on the surface.

perhaps this thing is premature and i think it would be good to let her know there that you were hurt by her action - if you can identify the feelings you have about her behavior, be specific. she does need to understand your sensibilities to help you better. she may know you well, but she is not not clairvoyant and certainly fallible... this time she perhaps went past where you were ready to go.

i do think also that you may go through horrible feelings if/when you yourself do this exercise... it may feel belittling of the feelings... as part of the reprogramming.

my advice is to attempt the "assigned" homework to the extent you are able, and when you stop being able, write down the feelings that stopped you. that is as good a homework as any for therapy. if you feel unable to even start it, then writing out your feelings is it. your response to this technique is important even if initially the response is one of rejecting the technique itself. but do spend time understanding the rejection, if you do.

as for email... do you feel you need to speak up to her right now? if so, go ahead with the email, otherwise, perhaps just talk to her about it first thing, next time. if you email to get it off your chest, be sure to focus on how the idea feels belittling of your feelings, but try not to ascribe to her an intent of belittlement - of you, or of your feelings - because i really think the intent was that of neural reprogramming. our brains certainly do create new neural pathways all the time. it is the only way we are able to learn anything or remember anything.

it is unfortunate it came up towards the end of session and you did not get a chance to get into it more at the time. that happens to me sometimes and those are hard sessions - they feel unfinished. then again therapy sometimes would require an untenably long session... so... well, that happens.



~ waves ~

p.s. have been meaning to post on your success thread for a long time... but get sort of stuck in the mud every time. perhaps i will do it in spurts, as there are different parts to things i would have to say. anyway i will try.

I know my tdoc has recently been to a workshop about this sort of schema thing, as she has previously told me about an example where all the participants were given a task to think of something that goes through their head and that holds them back from doing what they want to do in their lives, such as "I'm never good enough" ... "I'm a bad person" ... "I'm a failure", and that sort of thing. And so at the start of the workshop, she told me that they had to write one of these statements on a sticker, and they had to wear this sticker as a name tag! So people had name tags on their shirts that said - "Tom - "LOSER" ... or "BJ - "FAILURE" and that sort of thing. At the time she told me about this, I remember thinking that I could NEVER do that, and wear as a name tag a thought or feeling that was so painful and deeply felt! So I am thinking that this nursery rhyme task came from the same workshop.

Lately as soon as I walk into her room and she asks "How are you today?" I just burst into tears. Not sure where that comes from, even if I had a not so bad week, I get in there and I cry.

She asks what is going on, I tell her nothing really happened this week, went to work, went to PT etc, nothing major, no trigger. Yet I cry like I’m traumatized.

I have been trying to avoid all trauma work/memories right now because it is busy time at work trying to catch up after tax season, but it might be coming through somehow. Not sure how to make the crying stop though.

I don’t believe I could tolerate doing this task without feeling majorly self conscious and humiliated. And I still can't figure out how this is going to help the shame and self loathing very much.

This is all so confusing sometimes. I am sure she just thinks I’m a hopeless case.

Dear BJ,
Don't do it then. This is totally up to you.

She threw something out that she thought would work. You can let her know that it is not going to work -- certainly not right now.
She will need to come up with something else.

I kind of understand the theory or her thinking behind it. Maybe it is a good idea for some people, but you don't feel that it is right for you. Your feelings are important.

Excuse me while I rant a bit in your thread:
She said that she had to do the sticker exercise at the workshop and apparently did fine. Hello?!!?!
Is she in treatment for serious major life stuff like you are? It doesn't compare.

As long as you keep talking to her and keep telling her what you are thinking, she will keep working with you. Don't worry about her.

Sending you hugs.
I know that when I hear about something that is supposed to help me and it sends me backwards instead, I can get depressed and feel like progress is hard.


Remind yourself that you have indeed made great progress.
Mari

I do want to try and be a bit more flexible and open about this sort of a thing – she has been so good for me, and I probably should have a lot more faith in her. But then again, she is also telling me that I am in control of the direction of therapy, and will know what is right for me and what isn’t. And I just don’t think this is right for me, not now anyway.

I don’t want to be a coward about this ... and I don’t want to let her down. And it definitely would be much more comfortable to live my life without carrying the heavy burden of so much inner pain, shame and self-loathing wherever I go. But it’s humiliating repeating the words that I’m supposed to be putting in the back of my mind right out there and to the tune of a nursery rhyme that is supposed to be child’s play. This is real, this is painful, and it’s not a game. My head hurts just thinking about it.

Awwww, (((BJ))).


I have been known to write lyrics from time to time, but would also find this assignment very difficult. Good luck to you.


You are very brave to post about your challenges.

Dear BJ,
I think you need to talk to her again.

Ask her to explain the purpose of it.
Her little song reminds me of how good it can be to make strong words / feelings loose their power over us.
This sounds similiar to what she is talking about. If you put the words in a child's song, then you change places with the feelings the words represent and you can have power.


But there are other ways in therapy for her to do this.
You can maybe come up with your own game to claim your own power.
Let her know that you do not choose to use her song / game.

M.

BJ

I believe if its meant for you to do it you would do it! Without a qualm,
without much thought. YOu are a much different person than when
I came in.

I also believe that if you could do just a small amount of this it might
be a good thing. But also you might be able to give her a phrase
of the nursery rhyme or another to explain why your not ready yet.

And she isn't letting go yet. You are in charge of your growth, thats
how I think of this.

Donna