Peter,

It is not a periodontal problem... it has nothing to do with the gum and the xray is not inconclusive. First of all root canaled teeth are always infected. I know that is not what you want to hear and it is not what your dentists are telling you but that is because they neglect to address the infected accessory canals as a problem. Secondly, there is a definitive area at the apex of this tooth that is not normal anatomy. The reason the pain comes and goes is because the bacteria is draining from the tooth into a pocket in between your teeth. When the pocket fills up, it becomes inflamed and then it hurts. When the pocket drains, the pain subsides. It may also be draining into your sinus....similar to our other poster pdne. Do you also have pain under that cheekbone?

To perform a deep scaling in this area will only cause further irritation, inflammation and bacteria to spread. Why? Because it is the tooth that is infected..... not the gum. The gum hurts because the bacteria from the tooth is seeping into the tissue causing it to inflame. Deep scaling in this area could result in a major abscess and/or sinus infection... or worse. I know this procedure is frequently recommended in cases like yours but it will not have a favorable outcome. I have assisted on many hundreds of these procedures.... it is senseless in your case because it is the tooth that is infected.

Regarding the molar behind this one..... oye! That tooth does not need a root canal for any imaginable reason. It is ludicrous for the dentist to even suggest such a thing! It appears to have 2 small cavities that are in difficult spots but can be accessible by a well skilled dentist. They would be even more accessible if you removed #14.

Please rethink the proposed treatment plan.

Bryanna

If I press the bone above #14 from the inside of the mouth, it is a bit painful, but so is on the other side of the face. Otherwise no pain in the checkbone, only pressure above #14.

So today I got lucky I managed to use some connections and actually got to see the periodontist (who also has endodontic background). He said the gums around #14 and #15 are fine and that this is no periodontitis. He also examined the x-ray and says the root canal filling (the gutta-percha or whatever is used to fill the canals) is not homogeneous and has small holes, allowing the bacteria to pass. So I need to see the endodontist for further evaluation.

So I went back to the dentist who now also thinks the radiolucency near the apex is a granuloma in the making, he can't clean the root canal himself to he referred me to the endodontist. Looks like I've reached the dead end in our public healthcare system, as it takes many months get an appointment at the endodontist, and the one I can get to sooner via connections is on vacation till September, yay. The dentist even stated we can do nothing but wait till I get swelling, and then he can help by cutting the gums to drain the infection!

So while I'm evaluating the options (not used to these astronomic costs that occur when you go outside the public health system for anything other than normal fillings) - a question: would just removing the gutta-percha from the canals and putting in some antibiotic (or whatever is used - essentially reestablishing the situation that is present right after the pulp is removed and before canals are cleaned and filled) help relieve the pain & help prevent escalation of the problem? I'm not ready to just panic and have the tooth extracted, essentially I'd like to buy some time. I've had pulps removed, canals partially cleaned and left in that state for weeks or even months before and had no complications whatsoever.

Peter

Hi Peter,

<<<He also examined the x-ray and says the root canal filling (the gutta-percha or whatever is used to fill the canals) is not homogeneous and has small holes, allowing the bacteria to pass.>>>

THIS STATEMENT MADE BY THE DENTIST IS RIDICULOUS. GUTTA PERCHA IS NEVER HOMOGENOUS AS THE INTEGRITY OF THE RUBBERIZED MATERIAL BREAKS DOWN WHEN IT IS MELTED INTO THE LARGE CANALS THEREFORE IT ALWAYS HAS HOLES IN IT. THAT'S WHY THEY OVER STUFF THIS MATERIAL INTO THESE LARGE CANALS IN AN ATTEMPT TO PACK IT THICK. BUT IT BREAKS DOWN NO MATTER WHAT AND THIS OVER STUFFING CAUSES CRACKS AND FRACTURES TO OCCUR WITHIN THE ROOT STRUCTURE.
PLEASE ASK YOURSELF THIS..... IF THE CANALS WERE CLEANED OUT AND MADE STERILE DURING THE ROOT CANAL PROCEDURE (WHICH IS WHAT PEOPLE ARE LED TO BELIEVE A ROOT CANAL DOES), HOW CAN THERE BE BACTERIA IN THEM? DOES THIS MEAN THE TOOTH IS INFECTED BEYOND THOSE LARGE CANALS? COULD IT BE THAT THE BACTERIA IS COMING FROM INSIDE OF THE TINY CANALS THAT CAN NEVER BE CLEANED OUT? CAN YOU SEE HOW HIS STATEMENT CLARIFIES WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING??

The pathological area seen on the xray in all probability is a growing granulomatous cyst. He admits there is a growing bacterial problem and he wants you to wait until you have swelling??? He needs to be reminded that your brain is only a few inches from this growing infection. The swelling may occur internally into your sinus or beyond as the infection spreads. Also, there is no surgical procedure that can magically drain this infection that would cure the problem. The problem is not accessible and the only way to remove the problem is to remove the tooth.

<<<would just removing the gutta-percha from the canals and putting in some antibiotic (or whatever is used - essentially reestablishing the situation that is present right after the pulp is removed and before canals are cleaned and filled) help relieve the pain & help prevent escalation of the problem?>>>

NO BECAUSE THE PROBLEM IS NOT THE GUTTA PERCHA IT IS THE TINY CANALS THAT CANNOT BE REACHED OR MADE HEALTHY AGAIN. IN FACT ANYTHING THAT IS DONE TO THIS TOOTH WILL CAUSE FURTHER INFLAMMATION AND INFECTION.

<<<I'm not ready to just panic and have the tooth extracted, essentially I'd like to buy some time.>>

I UNDERSTAND YOU WANT TO HOLD ONTO THIS TOOTH. I AM NOT TELLING YOU TO PANIC OVER THIS. I AM INFORMING YOU OF A BREWING INFECTION THAT HAS THE POTENTIAL TO INFECT YOUR SINUS AND YOUR BRAIN. IT ALSO IS DESTROYING THE JAW BONE WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT BE ABLE TO BE REPAIRED. THIS IS WHY I CANNOT STRESS ENOUGH TO YOU AND OTHERS TO NOT TAKE THIS TYPE OF INFECTION LIGHTLY IRRELEVANT OF WHAT YOUR DENTISTS ARE TELLING YOU. DENTISTS DEAL WITH SERIOUS INFECTIONS ALL OF THE TIME SO IT'S NO SKIN OFF THEIR NOSE IF ARE JUST ANOTHER ONE OF THOSE PATIENTS. WOULD YOU RATHER END UP IN AN EMERGENCY SITUATION WHERE YOUR FACE HAS SWOLLEN TO TWICE IT'S SIZE? WHEN IT GETS TO THAT POINT, THE PERSON IS USUALLY HOSPITALIZED FOR SEVERAL DAYS TO REDUCE THE SWELLING BEFORE THE TOOTH CAN BE REMOVED. OF COURSE THE DENTISTS MAKES MORE MONEY WHEN THIS OCCURS...... :/
WHEN YOU HAD THE ROOT CANAL INITIALLY THAT WAS WHEN YOU WERE "BUYING SOME TIME". THE INFECTION IS WELL PAST THAT STAGE AND THAT IS WHAT YOUR DENTISTS ARE FAILING TO EXPLAIN TO YOU.

<<<I've had pulps removed, canals partially cleaned and left in that state for weeks or even months before and had no complications whatsoever.

YOU THINK YOU HAD NO COMPLICATIONS BECAUSE YOU ARE OF THE ASSUMPTION THAT IF YOU HAVE NO TOOTH PAIN, YOU HAVE NO PROBLEM. WHICH IS UNFORTUNATELY JUST NOT TRUE. MOST TOOTH PROBLEMS HAVE LITTLE TO NO SYMPTOMS UNTIL THE PROBLEM IS SEVERE. SIMILAR TO HEART DISEASE, DIABETES, AUTO IMMUNE DISORDERS, AND COUNTLESS OTHER PHYSICAL CONDITIONS THAT MAY HAVE LITTLE TO NO SYMPTOMS UNTIL THE CONDITION BECOMES SEVERE.

ALL ROOT CANALED TEETH ARE INFECTED AS I'VE STATED AND GIVEN EVIDENCE OF MANY TIMES ALREADY. IT IS CERTAINLY YOUR PREROGATIVE TO BELIEVE IT OR NOT. SO I GUESS IRRELEVANT OF WHAT YOU READ HERE FROM MYSELF OR FROM PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING THROUGH THE SAME SITUATION AS YOURSELF.... AND IRRELEVANT OF THE INFORMATION THAT I PROVIDE FOR YOU, YOU PREFER TO WAIT FOR THE PAIN AND SWELLING TO TELL YOU THERE IS A PROBLEM. THAT IS TOTALLY YOUR CHOICE OF COURSE... AND I SINCERELY WISH YOU WELL!

Bryanna

Dear Peter.

I think it would not be wise for you to hold on to that teeth. I know it's a painful & dreadful decison that you have to make. I am in similar position with you too. I have received a verdict of either 5 root canals or extractions. I too was crying over my teeth, but still I prefer to buy myself many many more years to live healthily. Heck I am only 37, of course the thought of losing teeth freaks me out too.

FYI, I haven't done any root canals before, I really hope my infectious teeth haven't done much harm to my health. So, rather than saving few teeth that eventually will fail and have to give my body more burdens to fight continuous infection, I prefer the easy way out, remove them all before things get worse.

My current update:
Bryanna, I am set to see an Oral Surgeon on the 25th, that's the earliest appointment I can get. We'll see how things going from there & will keep you updated.
As for now, I still can tolerate the dull pain while chewing foods. I only pay more attention on my oral hygiene ie. more flossing and more routine oil pulling with VCoconut Oil to buy my teeth some time until I can finally kiss them good bye for good.
I haven't discussed about the implants for the lower part with the OS, but defnitely will. Perhaps I will do it sometimes early next year, as i have just found out that I will be moving houses around Oct.
Thanks btw for bringing it up.

Hi chocola,

Thanks for sharing your situation here with Peter. It is a scary thing to be faced with removing a tooth or several teeth and it is not an easy or simple decision. I think many people find it difficult to connect the health of their teeth with the rest of the body especially when their dentist doesn't make the connection :/ But reality is... there is a direct correlation and what is more important keeping your sick tooth or keeping yourself healthy?

I am glad that you made the appointment with the OS and that you are working hard with your oral hygiene. It may be too late for some of your teeth .... but the other ones will thank you for taking care of them )

Yes, please keep us posted!
Bryanna

I'm sorry for taking so long to get back to you-it's been a crazy work week.

Honestly, I'm not sure i would do dental implants yet if I were you. In my case, we know what's wrong with me, and then have several doctors saying proceeding was ok based on lab work. When you don't know exactly what's wrong, and you add a other piece to the puzzle, it can be challenging-because now your doctors have something else to blame it on, and lets be honest to use as an excuse to blow you off. No matter what kind of implant you were to choose, they would blame that.

Have you tried acupuncture or other "alternative" medicine? I know that some non traditional medicine has helped me.

I'm so sorry you have to deal with this!

Hi!

Yes, I have tried "alternative" everything....but again, I react to it..as I do with everything!! I have learned over the years that the best treatment for me is NO treatment at all....just clean, organic, chemical free eating and living. With no supplements or medications at all!!! That is why I was so scared to even get the extraction... for fear of triggering all my health issues. See, my then, "alternative" doctor that I was going to many years ago when I was desperate for an answer(before I knew it was levaquin toxicity) was trying all these differ supplements, homeopathy, muscle testing, etc....nothing was helping at all. sometimes things became worse. Well, one day (I now realize this was a complete shot in the dark) he asked me if I had any root canals...I said "yes, just one-#14") and he then said "ok, well go get that checked out" He gave me a # to a holistic dentist that I have been using since then(well, not since the extraction...they have been super weird with me since they know it triggered my health issues) and ever since the alternative dr. sent me to this dentist 5 years ago, they have kept an eye on this root canal (I didn't know this until now because they never said a word to me about it) until this past November when I went in because, for the first time since the root canal 13 years ago, I had pain...the dentist immediately said "well, its time to get it pulled" but I also knew that I had a very old amalgam in #15 (my only amalgam) So I asked my dentist if we should address #15 first. He said "oh, I'm more worried about #14 than #15" but here I am 8 months later since the onset of initial tooth pain, 4 1/2 months since the extraction...still with tooth pain and a whole lot of health issues that were finally feeling better, back again. This whole ordeal has truly changed me mentally, and Im just so sad about how it went down. The OS and dentist(who work closely together) have been super shady ever since...I'm at a loss as what to do now. I'm only 36 and a married mother of two. Having a tooth pulled and to have it still missing has really messed me up psychologically! I do not like any of my replacement options! But through the grace of God, I will be healed!

Thanks for listening! I know you have had your share of dental nightmares!

All,

I am so happy to find this VERY useful information!

I should first say that I am no novice to dental issues. Although I like to think I have good teeth (as of today, they're all mine ), but I suspect that will change very soon. I have six veneers on my upper front teeth as I got tired of having bonding replaced for staining and a chipped tooth. I also have around 8 crowns, done over time, and all are fine except for the last two.

As for the root canal/dental trauma: I had my first root canal, post and crown done over ten years ago after a molar cracked. The RC was done by an endologist (sp?), the post and crown done by an experienced dentist and all is well there. The trauma is that in the past three or so months and eight or so appointments, I've had a root canal and two crowns done. I should mention that I'm a grinder and have had night guards for many years -- I wear them faithfully! I decided that two of my upper left teeth needed fillings and/or crowns as they were worn done (yes, I elected to had this done). Did I also mention that I'm a total dental wimp? For my first root canal, when I was told that it would be two appointments, at least an hour each, I broke out in a cold sweat. I made them bring in an IV sedation guy ($500/hr., but I was willing to pay to be calm).

So, on to the trauma. My new dentist recommended bruxzir crowns as they're supposedly indestructible. For the first tooth he drilled, took a mold for the permanent crown and placed a temp. The temp came off within a few days -- it wasn't a big deal as temps never seem to last for me. So, I kept the area clean, etc. The next appointment, he drilled my tooth, drilled the crown, etc. for almost two hours. He then place the crown and told me to bite down. I heard a horrible "crunch." Ugh! That had never happened with any of my prior crowns. He then did a second mold for another permanent crown and placed the defective one on "temporarily" - total time 2 1/2 hours. That placement was uncomfortable, but I let it pass thinking it's only temporary. Three weeks later, I go back for another appointment. This time he did very little drilling on the permanent crown (as he said the first one was compromised by the drilling -- yes, the supposedly indestructible crown). He also said he'd place it "temporarily" to make sure I didn't have any discomfort. (At that point, I knew I was looking at a root canal.) He also placed a temp crown on the tooth next to it.

Low and behold, three days later, I hear a crunch at 10 PM. I thought it was the temp crown on the second tooth. I immediately emailed his office and was seen the next day. It was a Friday and he said, no, it was the first tooth (now on the second "permanent" crown). He immediately prepped for a root canal and gave me a Rx for meds. That was followed up on Monday for the root canal and permanent placement of the first crown. About two and a half weeks later, he placed the second crown on the second tooth and took an impression for a new night guard.

I know I mentioned that I've been wearing night guards for years, but I should mention that I wasn't able to wear one during this ordeal since they're specifically molded for your teeth. When the configuration changes (i.e., crowns, etc.) you cannot wear the old one. So, I had to wait until all the work was completed, a new mold was done and then received back from the lab.

Both crowns were placed my mid-November and I got the night guard in late November. Ever since then, I have a strange feeling that if I bite down on the left side of my mouth, something will crumble. Not to mention, I've been "chewing" (meaning soup, mashed potatoes, soft cheese, etc.) on the right side for three months! It scares the daylights out of me!

I went to second dentist (she was young and probably just got out of dental school) who took x-rays and said all looked fine, but she didn't know what was under the crowns. I opted to have a day retainer made. It was made by a dental assistant who cut off the back molar parts when I said it was uncomfortable and rubbing my gums.

To sum it up, I still have the feeling that something will crumble so I've been wearing my night guard 24/7 as it's much more comfortable, but I know it's not optimal. I have an appointment tomorrow with a dentist a friend/colleague recommended. He's reputable, has over 20 years of experience (like my old dentist that I loved!) and I'm 99% certain will send me to an oral surgeon.

At this point, from what I've researched and read (many hours, trust me as I've become obsessed - yikes!), it seems the best thing is to have the two teeth extracted and implants done. I really would like to keep all my teeth but I'm not into dental pain/trauma and it's seems best long term.

Last point - I promise! I'm in NYC and do not currently have dental insurance so all of this it out of pocket (read: cha-ching!). Someone mentioned their dentist/oral surgeon in Mexico. If and when (probably very soon) I need implants, etc., I'm leaning towards Costa Rica.

Any and all advice, experience, etc. is very welcome!

well the mouth does contain bacteria at all times even if its healthy does it not? so it is different from other areas.

And have you told a dentist what you have said in this quote about why you think root canals are so bad? what do they say?

The tooth is not 'sick' if theres no blood it is simply like a false tooth. It is just like a human bone. Human bones are often preserved after a person dies for hundreds of years are they not? So why should they not survive for 40-50 years?

I would like to see evidence of what you write because it is definitely not mainstream.

Jim,

The mouth contains many hundreds of different bacteria... some good and some bad.

I am re posting something you said....

<<The tooth is not 'sick' if theres no blood it is simply like a false tooth. It is just like a human bone. Human bones are often preserved after a person dies for hundreds of years are they not? So why should they not survive for 40-50 years? >>

You are incorrect about a tooth not being sick if there is no blood. Teeth while still in the jawbone in the mouth are are a living body part and they require live nerves and blood to keep the bad bacteria from taking them over. A non vital or infected tooth that is in the mouth will become diseased from the bacteria inside of it and from the bacteria in the bone around it. A tooth that has been removed from the jaw bone, can exist outside of the mouth probably forever. When you speak of preserved bones, there are different ways of preserving them dependent upon different circumstances. A clean bone with no odor or tissue attached to it, is considered preserved just the way it is. A bone that has tissue attached to it and/or has an odor needs to be cleaned in a specific way to preserve it. I am not getting any further into to this topic, just so you know.

If you are such a firm believer in the mainstream, conventional manner of handling your health issues, then why do you keep questioning it?

Bryanna