[pained]

Because there seems to be much confusion on other posting sites....

If you go to the dentist and walk out in pain, you do not have Type 1, Type 2, or ATN. You have neuralgia on the trigeminal nerve which is an injury, not the disease/disorder. Treating dental nerve injuries with treatments that are intended to be for the disorder/disease such as, MVD, Gamma Knife, Freezing, Cutting, Botox, will only make it worse. It may get better for a period of time but the pain will return with a vengeance.

People, including doctors, throw out that TN diagnosis like it is a one type fits all. It isn't. I'm not sure that many doctors even know the difference. They are VERY different. Unfortunately, most dental nerve injuries are not treatable with anything other than medications unless you are able to intervene immediately after it happens.

Please just be aware of the difference and proceed with caution. Understand your injury and what your doctor is recommending.

An injury to a nerve in the jaw does not cause a blood vessel to press on a nerve way up stream towards the brain.

[Vowel Lady]

Ok, I get it. Some dentists worked on my mouth and left me with a very bad, likely permanent injury to the Trigeminal Nerve. My neuro told me immediately, after listening to the loooong horrible nightmare of a story starting with the first horrific BOZO dentist and ending with the last, that surgery would NEVER be an option for me. He tends to call it "atypical TN," and sometimes "nerve injury." I'm ok with these terms since I feel my pain and injury are basically "atypical" since I don't have compression in a nerve in my brain. I believe they need a category for "sadistic, Unintelligent, uncaring, greedy dentists drilling or doing some other stupid thing to the TN." SUUGDDDSOSTTTTN....that's me! I'm on a LOT of expensive meds and have good days and bad. It is very difficult and I try hard to keep my sense of humor.
It is weird how doctors will sometimes (maybe more often than we realize) agree to do procedures with little to no need or hope of success. My doc made my situation perfectly clear...what happened to me and what my limits are.

[Bryanna]

Hi Vowel Lady,

Do you still have that root canaled tooth or did you have it extracted?

I remember you said you purchased it, but did you get the opportunity to read the book by Dr Robert Kulacz and Dr Tom Levy... The Roots of Disease, Connecting Dentistry to Medicine?

Originally Posted by Vowel Lady

Ok, I get it. Some dentists worked on my mouth and left me with a very bad, likely permanent injury to the Trigeminal Nerve. My neuro told me immediately, after listening to the loooong horrible nightmare of a story starting with the first horrific BOZO dentist and ending with the last, that surgery would NEVER be an option for me. He tends to call it "atypical TN," and sometimes "nerve injury." I'm ok with these terms since I feel my pain and injury are basically "atypical" since I don't have compression in a nerve in my brain. I believe they need a category for "sadistic, Unintelligent, uncaring, greedy dentists drilling or doing some other stupid thing to the TN." SUUGDDDSOSTTTTN....that's me! I'm on a LOT of expensive meds and have good days and bad. It is very difficult and I try hard to keep my sense of humor.
It is weird how doctors will sometimes (maybe more often than we realize) agree to do procedures with little to no need or hope of success. My doc made my situation perfectly clear...what happened to me and what my limits are.

[Bryanna]

Pained,

I assume the copy of that radio graph of a tooth is your tooth? I have not be on here for several days and have not yet read any other posts by you.

I know for a fact that unexpected or unintended issues, unbeknown to the patient and sometimes even the dentist, can and do occur during dental treatment. Unless the issue is blatant at the time of occurrence or it proceeds to become symptomatic, most of the time the "issue" goes unnoticed or unmentioned. Something can occur that is injurious to the patient that does not affect the trigeminal nerve but rather a different area of the mouth or possibly the sinus area which can cause symptoms of atypical facial pain. Sometimes the injury is permanent and other times it's not.

I agree that treating the symptoms is not usually a solution to the problem. For instance, treating facial pain that presents itself as a neuralgia type pain when the pain is more than likely associated with an infected and/or root canaled tooth... or a cavitation in the jaw bone where infectious bacteria has migrated to from either a present or previously removed infected or dead tooth... is certainly not the solution. I agree that the longer the "issue" is present, the less likely for a permanent solution.

The problem that occurs with many people who are misdiagnosed and therefore mistreated for ATN or other similar problems supposedly not related to their "existing" dental problems, will most likely never find relief. The systemic concerns associated with infected teeth and dead teeth are numerous and because these people are repeatedly misdiagnosed, the problem becomes widespread. Again, the longer the issue is present, the less likely for a permanent solution.

Also an injury to the trigeminal nerve in the jaw, whether it be due to infection or trauma, can absolutely create problems in other areas of the face, and head, including the brain. There is an intricate connection of nerves, ligaments, muscles, blood vessels.... that communicate from the TN to other areas of the face, neck, head.... etc. One communication to one area, sets off communication to yet another area, and so on. Along with that, inflammation and infectious bacteria really have no boundaries.

I'm curious if that xray is of your tooth, do you still have this lower molar or was it extracted?

Bryanna

Originally Posted by pained

Because there seems to be much confusion on other posting sites....

If you go to the dentist and walk out in pain, you do not have Type 1, Type 2, or ATN. You have neuralgia on the trigeminal nerve which is an injury, not the disease/disorder. Treating dental nerve injuries with treatments that are intended to be for the disorder/disease such as, MVD, Gamma Knife, Freezing, Cutting, Botox, will only make it worse. It may get better for a period of time but the pain will return with a vengeance.

People, including doctors, throw out that TN diagnosis like it is a one type fits all. It isn't. I'm not sure that many doctors even know the difference. They are VERY different. Unfortunately, most dental nerve injuries are not treatable with anything other than medications unless you are able to intervene immediately after it happens.

Please just be aware of the difference and proceed with caution. Understand your injury and what your doctor is recommending.

An injury to a nerve in the jaw does not cause a blood vessel to press on a nerve way up stream towards the brain.

[Vowel Lady]

I read most of one book and perused the other. I've been either busy or in pain, so reading time has been limited, Bryanna. I still am conflicted, but open minded about the very real possibility of root canals being unhealthy for people. Ipstill have a rc tooth in number 30. I would be more suspicious of that rc IF so many peculiar things had not happened during my dental procedures. Many, if not most, people in my predicament have pain going To the dentist. I had no pain. I wanted a crown put on a cracked tooth. I had permanent pain leaving the dentist and none going in.

1. My young, inexperienced dentist took months to attempt to put on a crown causing soreness in the area. Lots of scratches in my mouth.
2. Inexperienced dentist put on crown that didn't fit using permanent cement.
3. Crown broke before I left the chair. Broke first time I bit down.
4. Inexperienced dentist took over an hour drilling trying to remove broken crown put on with permanent cement. Began having some more discomfort.
5. Owner dentist took over.
6. Owner dentist put in post in sore, cracked tooth. Said that was the only way she could do a crown. Used lots of novocaine.
7. Had some pain when novocaine wore off.
8. When Owner dentist removed temporary crown I almost fainted from severe, heavy duty, over the top, electrical pain.
9. Owner dentist alluded to me that perhaps I now needed a rc in that tooth and immediately went on a three week vacation.

I believe and so does my oral surgeon and my two neuros and a pain management guy I went to, that these dentists somehow damaged the Trigeminal nerve.

I went to other dentists for help, and it only got weirder.

I do not deny that having an rc tooth next to the tooth in question might play some very minor roll. Same with having an autoimmune illness. But again, I had NO pain at all, nothing, until these weird things happened with the dentists. I fully believe I would have NO pain today had these two dentists (cough) had not of done such horrible work on my mouth.

Eventually, I will finish the book. I know in my heart there is something to what you are saying with your posts. And I think it is a blessing that you help people here.

I pressed my new dentist re: root canals looking deep into his eyes. He kept on saying they were fine. Then he said " besides, we just can't pull out people's teeth left and right." I'm paraphrasing...but you get the idea. I think this is part of the problem. There aren't great alternatives, really. And for someone like myself with lupus and SS, implants are unlikely.

Would number 30 be visible if it were removed and I smiled? Between nerve damage and autoimmune stuff...Working in that area is a problem.

I wish there were some middle road where people did root canals rarely and implants more often. Perhaps some criteria set by those who understand these things fully and honestly. And / or more alternatives. And I really wish dentists were more honest, forthcoming, professional...etc.

[Bryanna]

Hi Vowel Lady,

"Pained" posted an informative thread, not sure if you have seen it so I am re posting it for you here. Please read the extensive information on the second link.

Here's her thread under useful websites:

Never let a dentist use formaldehyde on you or your toddler during a root canal. Ask if they are. Don't ask what they are using. You have to specifically ask if there is any formaldehyde being used. If the answer is yes, or they waffle, it is time to RUN. Don't be swayed by their defending of it.

Don't fall into the trap of believing things that are said by the American Endodontic Society. They are not a recognized group by the dental community and frequently tout untruths or unsubstantiated information in their quest to push a product that has been denied approval by the FDA, is not supported by the ADA, taught NOT to be used in every single accredited dental school and 99.9% of the dental community is adamantly against.

T1. his link is to the position statement published by the Am Dental Associations ONLY recognized root canal group.
http://www.aae.org/uploadedfiles/aae...gmaterials.pdf

2. Watch the NBC video at this website -

http://www.worstrootcanalever.com

[Vowel Lady]

Was it the video on Sargenti paste...the woman who had severe jaw injury after a rc using the paste? Gawd awful. So sad!

[Bryanna]

Vowel Lady,

What happened to this woman is probably more common than realized because it is common for this to be misdiagnosed over and over again. Only for the person to later be diagnosed with the "complications" rather than the cause. So in the persons record, the true culprit is never acknowledged.

On the video page, did you read down that page under "What Happened To Us"? It goes on to say how treating the problem earlier with removal of the tooth may have prevented the permanent damage that she has suffered. And because the surgery to remove the tooth was delayed, it was then not possible to clear out the contaminated bone completely. Again, she was misdiagnosed by her dentists and physician over and over again.

This information focused on the use of sargenti paste as a disinfectant during the root canal procedure. Which by the way is all that was used up until about 10 or so years ago. To this day, it is still being used, even in places where it is no longer legal to use it. And as we all have discovered here, dentists are not that open to informing their patients about ... too much of anything.

One huge fact that all of this information deliberately neglects to inform the public about is that ALL root canaled teeth irrelevant of whether sargenti was used or not, are chronically infected with gangrenous bacteria. So what happened to this woman, can and does happen to others who have root canaled teeth where that bacteria takes hold of the jaw bone. It should be noted that the evidence of jaw bone infection is typically not picked up on a dental radio graph until it is moderate to severe. Often the only symptoms are vague and may not even be in the exact area of the tooth.

In the cases similar to this woman's, the patient is usually told by their dentist and physician .... "I have never seen this before (BS!).... Your body rejected the root canal.... The root canal was not done properly.... The filling material was short of the apex." The patient doesn't know any better and they want to believe that their dentist/physician is being truthful with them. Rarely if ever is the patient properly informed simply because physicians are uninformed and dentists and their staff are educated to "retain" teeth no matter what. Strongly included in that "dental" education is the money aspect of performing endodontic therapy and no one wants to give that up. Unfortunately, this is the hard truth about the dental profession as I have witnessed it thousands+++ times over the last 3 decades and it's not getting any better among the conventional dental profession.

Bryanna

Originally Posted by Vowel Lady

Was it the video on Sargenti paste...the woman who had severe jaw injury after a rc using the paste? Gawd awful. So sad!

[Vowel Lady]

I have heard many times the following expression coming out of the mouth's of their dentists relayed to me by people suffering from various horrible dental and /or nerve injuries : "I have never seen anything like this before!" I'm beginning to believe dentists are given a seminar and told that when "it" hits the fan to tell the patient this line so the patient thinks the Dr. Did everything correctly and they are just a one in a ten million freak situation.

Although I might be wasting my breath, I'm going to ask AGAIN for my new dentist to look at my rc tooth next to the removed 31 and I'm going to try to get him to speak with me privately about rc teeth.

It's in front of 31. I forgot...is this 30 ? It still looks like hexx. It was evaluated by a dentist and that alone left me with three weeks of serious extra pain. Honestly, I don't think this tooth is the cause of my nerve problem. However, I'm not in love with having it around. *****important Would the removal of this tooth likely cause a noticeable gap in my smile?

Bryana, what is NICO? Is this the same as a cavitation?

Thank you.

[Bryanna]

Hi Vowel Lady,

If I had a nickel for every time I've heard a dentist say those words to a patients.... I would be a millionaire! The irony of what you said about dentists being trained to avoid confrontation or admittance to wrong doing..... is not all that far from reality. In general the dental profession has always been and continues to be deliberately evasive about informing their patients about lots of issues and their staff is expected to be the same way. I have learned to work only for those who appreciate the value of having their patients well informed. But that's a whole other story.......

If your new dentist is conventional minded, he will tell you root canaled teeth are fine and not to be concerned. Remember... that is what he is trained to do. If you see a biological dentist he may be more inclined to open up about the topic of root canals. However, all dentists need to be careful of how they approach this subject because to speak out differently than you are expected to, can get you into a lot of hot water and with no one to back you up.

Here are some questions you can present to your dentist:

1) How can it be healthy to keep a non vital tooth in my mouth when it wouldn't be healthy to keep a dead organ in my body?
2) Doesn't the tooth need vitality to not become infected?
3) I have read in several places that there are hundreds of microscopic canals in every tooth that contain nerve tissue. What happens to those nerves when the tooth is root canaled if that tissue cannot be removed?
4) If that nerve tissue just dies off, then wouldn't it cause inflammation and infection?
5) If the tooth is not alive and it contains dead nerve tissue, doesn't that create a unfavorable bacteria that can spread to the bone since the bone is alive? If so, then what happens to the bone? Is it replaceable?
6) Does a root canal actually "cure" the infection in the tooth? Or does the rc just subside the bacteria for a uncertain amount of time allowing the person to "retain" the tooth for that length of time?
7) Can an infected tooth, like a root canaled tooth, eventually have a negative affect with the immune system and be a contributing factor to a systemic illness?
8) Can the bacteria from an infected tooth migrate to the sinuses or the brain?

Those are a few of the questions you can present to your dentist.

Yes, the tooth in front of 31 is #30. It would leave you with a large opening if both teeth were missing. Having that large open area could cause the upper teeth on that side to move downward as they would have nothing to occlude against to prevent them from moving. So it would not be ideal to leave that large opening.. open.

NICO is a type of cavitation. There are various degrees of cavitations that can occur in the bone. There are also a variety of bacterias that are associated with them as well.

Bryanna

Originally Posted by Vowel Lady

I have heard many times the following expression coming out of the mouth's of their dentists relayed to me by people suffering from various horrible dental and /or nerve injuries : "I have never seen anything like this before!" I'm beginning to believe dentists are given a seminar and told that when "it" hits the fan to tell the patient this line so the patient thinks the Dr. Did everything correctly and they are just a one in a ten million freak situation.

Although I might be wasting my breath, I'm going to ask AGAIN for my new dentist to look at my rc tooth next to the removed 31 and I'm going to try to get him to speak with me privately about rc teeth.

It's in front of 31. I forgot...is this 30 ? It still looks like hexx. It was evaluated by a dentist and that alone left me with three weeks of serious extra pain. Honestly, I don't think this tooth is the cause of my nerve problem. However, I'm not in love with having it around. *****important Would the removal of this tooth likely cause a noticeable gap in my smile?

Bryana, what is NICO? Is this the same as a cavitation?

Thank you.