So that theory you stated that the shrinking hippocampus is likely a result rather than a cause of depression only applies to people who are not depressed (just stressed out). But if you are already depressed, then it is likely that the shrinkage of the hippocampus during depression will cause more depression?

I believe that to be so --esp in memory and learning skills will be sluggish .

[Matt, I can see that this thought is all consuming for you. Im trying the best way I know how to help you understad this reality of depression.

I think if you understand that depressed people brain because of --prolonged stress-- this will cause and becomes difficult in the way the brain is proccessing thoughts.

This is exactly why depressed people have a repeat pattern of negative thinking. These thoughts make it a harder for depressed people to see more of a postive outcome.

I hope you can sort thru this thought to a better outcome by using the tools --by complying to take meds , get physcial and mental activity,ck cortisol levels etc--- all the other thing we previously talked about.

I understand your reality-- when you said this thought is obsessive to you-- but there is more then depression that shrinks the brain and thats a fact!!

Just would really like you to try your best to overcome this thought. Best Wishes Always!!

Hi Matt
 

I think MG neck has a point. I just finished a good book, and the theme of it was "change your thinking" It isn't easy, but it is the best way to cope with things that bother us. Try to pick up a book when those thoughts happen, and know you are expanding your mind, not shrinking it with reading. I think filling up those worries with something educational would make up for any shrinking you think is going on. I am 61, suppose to be in decline mentally, but for me it isn't happening. I refuse to give in and say as you age, the mind absorbs less. I have read physics the last year, and low and behold I understand it. How come I didn't do that in High school? I think you have a good brain, and it certainly is capabable of expansion. It is up to you Matt, on what you want to fill your mind with. We all care about you. We are in your corner, and want you to feel good about yourself. ginnie:grouphug:

Hi Matt
 

I just wanted to give you a new thought. What if our brain really only regulates like heart beat, blood flow, physical things and we have a totally different part of us that is how we feel, our emotions, personality, our thoughts, who we are. Lets say it is the soul. What if all our brain function was completely knocked out -all memory (this has happened to me by the way) and yet we found we were still able to function with all this brain damage. We could be not depressed, able to feel emotions and think about new and expanded ideas. You are locking yourself in to an obsession my friend. Brain shrinkage? I have a 3mm area of my brain that is receiving no signals. It is shown on MRI. Yet I somehow am okay. Not functioning as actively as I used to but still ok. I also have brain shrinkage that shows on the frontal lobe. Yes I have to take some medications but I am able to MANAGE the condition. You know Einstein proved what I said above about having a separate part that is really us and can function without the brain.
Try to learn to meditate and expand your thinking past these thoughts. When these thoughts come in chuck them out fast just like you would smelly garbage in your house. Picture in your mind you throwing this thought out and every time it comes in chuck it out and think about something positive. You can change your thinking. You have the power. Not your brain. You are the master make your brain behave. Take charge of it. It works for you.
Good luck. I hope this gives you a different perspective.
Brain

Thanks everyone for your support, I am trying my best but wish to talk about this some more.

I have 2 more questions:

1.) I heard that neurogenesis occurs in the hippocampus and that these newly created neurons migrate to other parts of the brain. What parts of the brain receive neurons from the hippocampus?

2.) Does depression kill these newly born neurons that migrate from the hippocampus, or does depression just kill the already-existing ones in the hippocampus (the ones that don't migrate), or does depression kill both?

I think to answer those questions you'd need a researcher or expert ....

example:
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/...on-and-stress/

We have a link at the top right of the page to PubMed. using a good keyword will bring up many many research papers. Some of them have the contact information(emails) to the individuals who are actually doing the research, and those are the folks best qualified to answer some of these more detailed questions.

The research into neuroplasticity is ongoing...and revealing new insights every day.

Hi Matt
 

neurons flow freely in all parts of the brain. When one part doesn't work as great, they find a way around the injury. This is the miracle of the brain. You can do more than you think you can. ginnie:hug:

[Matt---Mrs D link --is a good article.

I will try again to answers your ? but you need to understand more about the brain its to complex-- to teach so you should do more research.

Regarding your first ?--Most of the brains neurons over 90% are located in the cerebral cortex. That part of the brain is divided into --4 lobes --the frontal lobe,parietal lobe,temporal lobe,and the occipital lobe. You can research all there functions. To get to the point Hippocampus is located in the medial temporal lobe inside this lobe is region of the brain known as the --limbic system--. In this system includes hippocampus the amygdala and thlamus,hypothalamus, epithalamus--most have to do with the the processing of memory simply put. To answer your question you need to really understand the brain and its functions. Example --hippocampus is important in memory function short--and long term and behavior. The amgdala prcoccess of memory and emotional reactions and impulses. It effects the medial temporal lobe --but most important hippocampus which is all a part of the limbic system. Which I think is your answer to your ?--- is the Limbic system.
Your 2nd ? ---I already think I have explained this too--- based on what been studied so far---that skringae is likely the effect of long term untreated (chronic depression) rather then the cause. This shrikange has shown to have changed and improved with treatment. This is all that has been understood --more studies are being done.

[Matt --have you been diagnosed with anything more then depression.?

The reason I ask Matt is I have a feeling your are extremly intellegent-- and have this obsessive thought or fear of losing your intellegence in time?

Please feel free to correct me if im wrong Thanks!

I have autism and I think a schizophrenic-like disorder where a negative thought is embedded in my mind regardless even when my mind is clear--just being aware of the thought affects me.

Now most normal people view themselves as a person here in reality and to have a purpose and make the best of reality and if they were to read anything (like what I've read about depression shrinking the brain), that information does not bother them and does not overrule his/her own reality (unlike me).

I feel as though I am detached from my own reality (unlike normal people) and view the scientific world as reality. In other words, this scientific information (world) regarding depression dominates my own personal reality.

Most normal people would not view neurons as their very being. Instead, they view their own personality and what they do in life as their being. But as for me, I view neurons as my being (since they really are). And then from there it becomes an inescapable horror knowing that my very being (neurons) die through depression. Again, this whole scientific world of depression and dying neurons dominates over my own reality, what I do in life, etc. regardless of what I do and think because thoughts such as ("just ignore this thought and move on with your life" or "you as a person are important and have control") are thoughts in the normal reality which, again, the normal reality does not exist for me--I realize that the scientific reality is what's real and overrules the normal moral reality of making the best of life, having a purpose, etc.

This is because, again, the world of science defines everything (even your own personality and what you want to do in life). This information about depression shrinking the brain is a world of science and defines and dominates over my own world regardless of knowing that there are positive scientific worlds (the world of growing new neurons).

Hi Matt
 

You helped me to understand you by telling me of your autism. Have you any idea really that this is a gift in many ways? You are intelligent, more so than you may know. Autistic people, do obsess, often in very very educational ways. The trick is to focus that energy and intelligence in a way that is positive and not negative. You arn't loosing any brain neurons, you are making them all the time. You have something the normal joe doesn't have, and you can use it for your betterment. I know an autistic gentleman, have known him since he was a child. I directed him into the field of paleontology, which to this day, he has obsessed over, but learned all the material I could offer. He may wind up doing that as a career. He is just 19 years old and brilliant!!!!!!!!!!!! All I did was help focus that obession into something he wound up loving. I don't know if I can' help you to focus differently. But I do want you to know that I believe you can. My friend did, and he is turning out to be a really cool individual. Thank you for telling me about yourself. The other mental condition, I would have to educate myself on. I only know from experience that autistic people are very very intelligent!!!!!!! ginnie:hug::grouphug:

[Hi Matt,

Thanks for the explanation. I understand science is being your reality-- but I dont think your not really focused on what science is also saying--your seeing it fragmanted.

Science shows what really matters when we age its not the size of your brain or how many neurons are left, its more how its wired. Its also more importantly shows what a person can do to perserve and rejuvenate the wiring with known depression.

When you learn a new thing it will enhance the number and the wiring of the neuronal networks. This will incease your brain power.

Science show the brain reatains a high degree of placticity--in learning new intresting things this will develop a higher number of nerve cell connections.

Science show brain cells continue to multiply in the hippocampus. By reducing stress hormones (cortisol),exercise brain and body and complying to anti dep meds.

Matt like Ginnie spoke of a friend--- I also have a friend from college who in his 20's in college had the same thought as you --of neurons dying in his brain-- because he was extremly smart-- and in his Senior year his obsession with the thought caused his depression to become extreme --he almost dropped out. He had a hard time trying focus on his senior thesis --because he 100% believed -- the depression was killing the neurons in his brain. It took alot of support from friends and family and a very good pdoc -- to get him thru his Senior yr of college. Talk about irony --guess what --he became neurologist!! -- He is nows married with two kids. Im not sure how old your are--- but it started to effect him in his early 20's-- he is in his 50's now --and a big success. Even when we speak about it now-- he still has clairty of how that thought consumed him completely for 10yrs. Now --because of treatment he see's the reality that it doesn't have to destroy your life or brain. If you do the work turn it around with all the things science suggest to do to keep your brain healthy!!!

Now me talking about this thought does help me.

So here's another question about the hippocampus.

In this link in the 2nd paragraph it states "He later reported that newborn neurons migrated from their birthplace in the hippocampus to other parts of the brain."

http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/b...nds_neuron.htm

Do only the newborn ones migrate, or do the ones that already exist in the hippocampus migrate as well? For this question, I do not need complex information--just a simple answer A.) the newborn ones or B.) both the newborn and the already-existing ones.

Matt,
You are way above my intelligence level and I don't know the answer to your question but I wondered if you have ever thought about becoming a researcher scientist? My little brother is one and is working on the cure for aids at our University of Utah here in Salt Lake City. My other brother has his own company and is a chemical engineer. My brothers love to talk about this kind of thing. What if you channelled all these questions into finding answers? You know researchers learn new things every day. None of the research you are talking about is 100 percent the way it is and will always be because they find out new information all the time. You are brilliant. I would appreciate it if you would get to work on the problem for people who have injured brains. What if you found the cure? Have you ever tried to talk to the research dept. at your local University? You are brilliant and like Ginnie says you have a gift.
Brain

Hi Matt, Im getting home late-- but Im almost confident its B --both but I will verify it tommorrow.

I thought it might of been B because aren't our neurons (both new and existing) constantly migrating to different brain parts all the time? Again, I just need a simple answer like "yes, the answer is B and yes, our new and existing neurons are constantly migrating to different brain parts all the time." I don't need any additional information beyond a simple answer (the example I just gave).

B--and yes (smile)

Now I have 4 more questions.

1.) Does the loss of pleasure activity due to depression equal out to the amount of activity gained in the amygdala?

2.) If it's not just the amygdala that gains activity during depression, but other brain regions that are responsible for negative emotions as well as controlling those emotions, does this overall activity of the amygdala plus these other brain regions equal out to the amount of pleasure activity that is lost during depression?

3.) If so, what are these other brain regions that gain activity during depression?

4.) Does the loss of pleasure activity due to depression equal out to the amount of activity the brain is using in an attempt to gain back pleasure?

So basically what I'm asking is if what is lost during depression (pleasure) is equally made up for both in terms of an active amygdala and other brain regions responsible for negative emotion/control as well as the brain trying to gain back pleasure. And that if a combination of those two things is equally (or even is greater) than the loss of pleasure activity during depression.

The reason I ask this is because if my brain does not equally (or even greater) make up emotionally for the lack of pleasure during depression, then I feel that my mind has died emotionally from depression rather than making up for that loss in the form of negative emotion/controlling negative emotion and, of course, attempting to gain back pleasure. Even if it's negative emotions (the active amygdala) that equally makes up for the lack of pleasure, that makes me feel emotionally "alive" rather than emotionally dying off through depression.

Matt --the condition depression in science is so very complex . There is no one explanation for the cause of depression. Thats why there is no single effective treatment for all.The frontal and temporal lobes of the forebrain are responsible for the thought assoc with depression --from there it get complex with limbic system ---as we spoke of before. I said it before its more about the wiring of the brain and how signals are sent --this is where it gets complicated. People known damage to amygdala have been studied to show autuism,phobias,anxiety and depression. It more from a neuro transmitter imbalance. Thats why not one drug works for all or one therapy--sometimes its combo of meds and cognotive therapy ..etc.

So there is no equaling out between the loss of pleasure activity and the combined activity of areas of the brain responsible for controlling depressive thoughts as well as areas of the brain contributing to depression and areas attempting to gain back pleasure?

What have studies shown regarding the loss of pleasure activity versus the amount of overall (combined) activity gained by the brain areas that make you depressed/that control depressive thoughts/that attempt to gain back pleasure? Have most of them shown that the overall activity is greater or that most of them have shown that the overall activity is less than the loss of pleasure activity during depression?

Or is there no such study and we don't even know at all if this overall activity is greater or less than the loss of pleasure activity during depression?

[Proof -hard to answer due to the complex nature ---like i know there is a couple of known causes for the neurotranmitter to be out of balance. Like chronic stress,poor diets -toxins drug abuse or drinking,genetics. However neurotrransmitters levels can be measured-

serotonin,dopamine,norepinephrine,gaba,glutomate,g lycine--or even check for hormonal imbalances like cortisol.

Hard to understand but I will try to give you example lack of serotonin will causes obssessions and compulsions,dopamine attention,motivation and pleasure.,norepineprine relates to altertnesss and energy and taking intrest in life(motivation)...thats what im trying to explain its not a one size fits all. Based just on my thinking if you have lack of these things intrest,motivation mental alertness or attention---it would have to have to reduce pleasure activity until treated with meds and therapy.

I have another question which is do glucocorticoids from depression kill the neurons in the prefrontal cortex (neurons responsible for pleasure), causing the pleasure area in the prefrontal cortex to fail, leading to more depression?

I read some studies say yes it shows neuro toxins in the hippcampal volume---and some say for a short period of time once stress hormones went back to normal --the atricles i read example one study was on rats--say yes --one study was done on vets ---show 15% loss of volume ---the major study was done with people with cushing disease which does point to yes for sure. I can say if def points to damage but it can be reversed by reducing stress.

Actually, I'm not talking about the hippocampus. I'm talking about the prefrontal cortex. Does it kill the cells there (as explained at the bottom of the article which is titled "Brain Structures"):

http://bio.sunyorange.edu/updated2/T...EPRESSION1.htm

I think its stating abnormal activity in that region which we already knew --but as far has volume loss it goes back to hippocampus and limbic region --the article adds a bit confusion for me --because in that section-- it also talking about stoke patients-- in the sentence before it.

Now I heard that the prefrontal cortex has a lot of glucocorticoid receptors like the hippocampus which makes it vulnerable to neuron death due to stress just like the hippocampus is.

So is it really vulnerable to glucocorticoids just like the hippocampus? Or is that not the case and it's not glucocorticoids that overstimulate neurons in the prefrontal cortex to death, but a lack of stimulation to these neurons that cause them to die due to a lack of bdnf and an excess of the GATA1 genes blocking the connection of new ones?

Or is it all of those things combined that kill the neurons in the prefrontal cortex (too much glucocorticoids, lack of bdnf, and the blocking of new neurons)?

I think its all the things combined ---kill the neurons --its so complex without simple answers. I think from all I have read ---whats most intresting is complex nature --not one direct thing --that why its so freaking complicated---to understand because the brain and its diffrent effect on all kind of mental illness had been studied. Thats why I do think its very smart to do your own research --instead of trying to rely on one thing that may lead to treatment in truth is may be several things may have to be tested as far as the road to treament for indviduals....no one size fits all cure.

Now I'm going to go back on my question right here (in quotes):

"Is the loss of pleasure activity in the brain due to depression less than, equal to, or greater than the overall (combined) activity gained by the brain regions in the limbic system that make you depressed/control depressive emotions (like the amygdala and the hypothalamus) during depression?"

So based on that question, I have 2 more questions:

1.) Do we even have the current technology to measure and compare brain activity to answer this question?

2.) Now just based on knowing how the brain works, can there ever be moments during depression where the loss of pleasure activity exceeds that of the combined activity? Or is that something we don't even know at all?

[QUOTE=MattMVS7;969116]Now I'm going to go back on my question right here (in quotes):

"Is the loss of pleasure activity in the brain due to depression less than, equal to, or greater than the overall (combined) activity gained by the brain regions in the limbic system that make you depressed/control depressive emotions (like the amygdala and the hypothalamus) during depression?"

So based on that question, I have 2 more questions:

1.) Do we even have the current technology to measure and compare brain activity to answer this question?

2.) Now just based on knowing how the brain works, can there ever be moments during depression where the loss of pleasure activity exceeds that of the combined activity? Or is that something we don't even know at all?


I will look into deeper but all I remember reading a study done depressed and non depressed ppl--depressed ppl esp anhedonla (loss of enjoyment) in known pleasure activity which was measured by MRI in neural activity.

In regards to my 2nd question right here:

2.) It mentions in this video that the amygdala becomes hyperactive during depression and I'm wondering--can there be moments in depression where a loss of pleasure activity during depression can actually exceed that of the activity gained by the amygdala plus other brain regions in the limbic system that make you depressed/control depressive thoughts?

And also, a 3rd question I have right here:

3.) When a loss of pleasure activity does occur during depression, can there be no additional activity gained by the amygdala and other brain regions in the limbic system that make you depressed/control depressive thoughts as a result of that loss of pleasure?

This is the video right here (that states the amygdala become hyperactive both in the video itself and in the video description):

http://www.thevisualmd.com/health_ce...pression_video

[I think we need to go back over a few things we talked about for understanding ---

amgadala ----process of memory and emotional reactions--we talked about damage with known disease like autism,phobias,anxiety and depression.

so when your speaking of increased hyper activity level amgadala ---were going back to neurotransmitter levels-- ie.. serotonin,dopamine,glutomate etc..

bdnf is good for the brain --but cant be measured .

we know we can measure -- these level --neurotransmitters--we know damage from dd comes from nerurotransmitter imbalance.

So the brain doesn't equally make up for what activity is lost (in this case, the loss of pleasure activity during depression) in other brain areas in the limbic system like the hypothalamus?

The loss of pleasure activity can actually be greater than the combined activity gained by other brain regions in the limbic system during a person's depression?

Hi Matt in trying to answer your ? would mean science would have to be able to measure the brain activity in various areas. To my knowledge has not been done yet to give you a defentive answer your seeking.

As far as the hypothalamus what is known in chronic depressed people some hormones under stress the adrenal axis gets turned on and the releasing factor is (crf)-- what is known is 50% of chronic stress people have raised cortisol levels. Hypothalamus is complex as well but simplfied its our pleasure and pain center.This area also regulates extreme feelings regardless of emotions. Hunger&thirst, but also rage,hostile-happiness,empathy and compassion.

Do we even know if there are such moments during depression where the loss of pleasure activity is not made up for in the hypothalamus and other brain regions in the limbic system just based on measuring cortisol and neurotransmitter levels alone regardless of the fact that we don't have the technology to measure and compare brain activity?

The only thing that i can fine thats comes somewhat close is its a person with depression loses chemicals like serotonin and dopamine at diffrents rates why some lose weight with dep,some gain weight--its all based on the transporter denisty. I found evidence one balance of these levels is achieved pleasure activity increases.

If you google "depression chemical imbalance myth," you'll see that we don't even know if chemicals like serotonin and dopamine even have anything to do with depression.

So if we take these chemicals out of the picture and go by the arguments against these chemicals playing a role in depression, do we even know if there will be such moments during depression as I've stated in my previous post?

34 % of untreated cases of chronic depression MAO-A enzyme breakdown of these chemicals like serotonin and depression was much higher and 50 % chronic dep ppl show with high cortisol ---we know there are many type of depression and factors that why i said it a complex disease---treated muti discip approach ---and the the evidence is show in % of diffrent people with diffrent treatments ---u wouldnt be depressed if we didint show decrease in pleasure activity changing isnt a clear picture ---because its been studied were done with treatments plans in mind,anti dep meds,diets,exercise...etc....shown to improve.

Hi Matt
 

You are very educated on this subject, so is mg. Maybe you could write a book? I don't think it would be a bad Idea for you to write all this down and submit it to a medical journal. ginnie

[Matt--I wanted to say this to you yesterday and im sorry im working on a project and got pulled away. I understand now that you shared you autuism with me and that science being your reality. What im trying to tell you from a science point of view --- is that the science world doesnt have alot of hardcore facts when it comes to depression. It has a ton of good theories which make sense and some are stronger then others. The reason for this-- its because its a complex disease!! Remember when we first talked and I gave you the cancer reference ---it hasnt changed. You can research this and you will find --no hardcore answer. I also understand your fear about losing your intelegence ---what does it mean ---????--- its the ablility to understand and apply knowledge. Depression can make the brain work not as effectivley sometimes--- but it will not make you dumb.!! I really would like to see you try to take this obsessive thought and work it on yourself on seeking out a good treatment plan with your doctors. Take what you have studied in all these theroies and try to map out your own self treatment. Have your blood work checked cortisol levels ,chemical levels, try every known treatment in helping yourself recover. You are very smart Matt!! I wouldnt be suprised to see you overcome this by doing your research on treatments for yourself--- but you def need to work with your Dr assistance.