Matt Im not sure on how u phrased this " when he/she then feel extremly a little depressed" ???

"no, science can't answer this." --again is my reply.

Im sorry----- I know this thought is obsessive and for that reason i tried to dig deep to find answer---- but there is no science i can find currently to answer this ? --I wont be online anymore tonight--- If i can locate any info on it I will def post it for you.

What I meant by when I said "extremely little depressed" is "hardly depressed at all." So putting that into perspective back into my question in my previous post, do you still say that science can't answer this and that we can't even guess what the answer is at this point?

If you want my guess yes I think loss of pleasure would increase when level are high --meaning one would feel less pleasure ---but i think once the levels and stress decrease symptoms would improve drastically --just like they do with cushing disease improved once cortisol level are controlled .

Im working on a project so I won't be back on tonight-- but should be here in the am --I hope this helped a little bit

Now what if the brain regions fail during chronic depression--brain regions that are responsible for making you depressed, controlling depressive thoughts, and attempt to gain back pleasure while the glucocorticoids are still overworking the neurons? Would you say that that the loss of pleasure activity only due to the glucocorticoids overworking the neurons is greater or less than the combined activity gained by these brain regions (combined activity that, this time, some of it being lost due to the failure of these brain regions, resulting in little gained activity)? Therefore, would you say that there are moments (a second or more or less or even longer) where this combined little gain of activity of those brain regions is greater or less than the loss of pleasure activity just due to the glucocorticoids overworking the neurons during chronic depression? Or, again, science can't answer this and we can't even begin to guess what the answer is?

The way this is worded added some confusion for me---- but I will tell you strictly my thoughts--not science--just based on my reading . If your asking me if a chronic depression person like yourself is on anti-dep meds and starts to feel better with depression symptoms. But that person cortisol levels are still high will there still be a greater loss of pleasure activity due to the stress hormones being high --my educated guess is YES. Because it shows that way mentally and physcially with cushing disease.

3 more questions (again, please answer each one):

1.) For a person who has chronic depression, can cortisol levels still be high even during moments this person feels alright, still overworking and killing the neurons and still causing a loss of pleasure even if this person doesn't have cushing disease?

2.) In regards to my question in my previous post, your saying that the loss of pleasure activity due to the glucocorticoids overworking the neurons can be greater than the little amount of combined activity that is gained by those failing brain regions during chronic depression? (again, what I mean by combined gained activity is that brain regions like the amygdala and hypothalamus become active during depression).

3.) What if for someone who has chronic depression, that those brain regions aren't fully failing (they are only mildly failing. Therefore, not as much activity that is gained by those brain regions is lost). Do you still say that the loss of pleasure activity due to the glucocorticoids overworking the neurons can still be greater than the combined activity gained by those mildly failing brain regions?

i will answer in the morning im working on a house so i dont have time but i will in the am/ p.s cushings was reference for you to show you how much damage it does to brain body if its running high --will post more later

Thank you, go ahead and answer each one of them when you get the time.

Matt is all fairness-- I can't answer the 3 ? because there to specfic and not known.

This is what I know--- that there had been clinical test done with people without depression and chronic depression. All i know ppl with no dep showed cortisol in the bloodstream peeked in the am --then decreased as the day went into the evening. In 50% of chronic dep ppl--- it peaked in the am and did not level off as the day went on. Studies suggest ppl with chronic dep in someway who had higher cortisol levels may induce more depression ---lack of sleep eating more,trouble staying focused...etc. because in someway it affects the serotonergic neurotransmission.

That 1000mg of Vit C 3x a day has been proven to reduce cortisol

Now when you say "3 ?" do you mean just the 3rd question, or all 3 questions (the last two asking if there are moments like a second or more or less or even longer where the loss of pleasure activity due to the glucocorticoids overworking the neurons can be greater than the combined activity gained by the fully failing and the mildly failing brain regions during chronic depression)?

Again, you can't answer or even guess at this question in parenthesis as well as those 3 questions? Again, just a simple reply "yes, I can answer and guess at that question in parenthesis as well as those 3 questions," or "no, I can't answer or even guess at that question in parenthesis as well as those 3 questions."

"no, I can't answer or even guess at that question in parenthesis as well as those 3 questions" I previosly already answered they way I felt applied which u asked me to guess or give my oppinion on -- but u need to understand you lumped in the ? about what area may be greater or less --and i cant answer this because there is noway to measure brain activity. I know for you Matt your trying to go my neurons-- not by how you feel--- but you have to understand some of these studies are done by bloodwork and how a persons moods are changed there emotional well being ---not on images or scans.

Now regarding back to my 1st question, it says here in this link that ”In some cases, this reduction continues when the depression itself is over.”:

http://sciencenordic.com/depression-can-damage-brain

So does that answer my 1st question, or is it still not known?

I read that article a few times myself he states in 10% --but not sure why ---if u notice in the article he closes about benefits of exercise.??

Last 15 or 20 yrs science knows the link of serotonin & dopamine and cortisol.

That if cortisol runs high that the serotonin and dopamine levels decrease and exercise has been studied numerous times show the benefit of decreases cortisol and raises serotonin and dopamine levels. Most chronic depression patients are treated with MAOI'S with Prozac for this reason becauses it shown to work increasing serotonin and dopamine --science suggest sometimes something goes wrong like in this article where 10% still show shrinkage ---could it be from cortisol ---its a pretty strong theroy.

Also, when you said “but I will tell you strictly my thoughts--not science--just based on my reading . If your asking me if a chronic depression person like yourself is on anti-dep meds and starts to feel better with depression symptoms. But that person cortisol levels are still high will there still be a greater loss of pleasure activity due to the stress hormones being high --my educated guess is YES.”

Now was that educated guess just based on a different subject, or was it regarding my questions of whether there are moments where the loss of pleasure activity can be greater than the combined activity gained by those failing and mildly failing brain regions during depression? Again, just a simple “yes, that educated guess was in regards to the loss of pleasure activity vs the amount of combined activity gained,” or “no, this educated guess was in regards to a different subject.”

If you read my answer again it was partial answer to your ? hence the reason I went into explanation about it ---greater loss of pleasure was my educated guess ----but---- this part of your ? to me --"loss of pleasure activity can be greater than the combined activity gained by those failing and mildly failing brain regions during depression?"---that part i cant answer.

Now for someone who has chronic depression, if there are moments when he/she feels fine, doesn't that mean that the glucocorticoids have been stopped? Or can it be possible for them to still be going on, still circulating through the brain even during those moments this person feels fine even if this person doesn't have cushing disease?

Im sure there are ---you dont have to have cushings to have high cortisol levels (that was just example)---that comes from prolonged stress not being treated . Stress and depression sometimes is a visious circle. Many changes have been seen in the brain with with a severe episode of depression and the same affects on the brain have been seen with prolonged stress. Its not the little bit of stress that hurts our brains --its prolonged stress. Thats why aside from anti dep meds, they stress the importance of exercise,sleep,diet,behavioral therapy all these things are known to reduce stress.

I know that this is the same question as before and I keep asking it (it's the same question with a bit of difference every time), but I am obsessed over it and just need to make sure of your answer.

If for someone who has chronic major depression and the regulation of the glucocorticoids has completely failed, resulting in a vast number of pleasure neurons being overworked and overworked to death, can there be moments (brief, like a second or less or more or even for longer periods) where the rate of loss of pleasure activity only due to the glucocorticoids overworking and overworking a vast number of those pleasure neurons to death is greater than the rate of activity gained by the hypothalamus (rate of activity gained only in regards to the hypothalamus reducing (regulating) the glucocorticoids [which in this case has failed] combined with the rate of activity gained of the hypothalamus controlling depressive thoughts), or also can the rate of loss of pleasure activity only due to the glucocorticoids overworking and overworking a vast number of those pleasure neurons to death be greater than just one of those rates of activities mentioned gained in the hypothalamus during chronic major depression (again, either the one rate of activity gained in the hypothalamus that regulates the glucocorticoids or the other rate of activity gained in the hypothalamus which controls depressive thoughts)?

This question also applies to if the hypothalamus is failing during chronic major depression (where both of those gained rates of activities I just explained is lost, resulting in little gained activity), can the rate of loss of pleasure activity only due to the glucocorticoids overworking and overworking a vast number of those pleasure neurons to death be greater than either one of those gained rates of activities in the failing hypothalamus, or can it be greater than both of them combined? This question is also in regards to if the hypothalamus is mildly failing (where not as much of those both activities is lost) and also if the hypothalamus is not failing. This question is also in regards to if this person has intense episodes of major depression and also if he/she goes from mildly depressed to intense episodes of major depression, and is also in regards to when this person only experiences mild depression, and also in regards to when this person is experiencing prolonged periods of these forms of depression (both major and mild), and finally in regards to moments when this person experiences hardly any depression at all.

Again, just a simple answer "yes, I can take a guess at this," or "no, I can't even begin to guess at this." I know that you might say "no, I can't even begin to guess at this," it's just that I have an obsession with trying to absolutely make sure in regards to your answer to this question. Again, just choose one of those answers in quotes--you don't have to explain anything, but you can if you want.

[Again, just a simple answer "yes, I can take a guess at this," or "no, I can't even begin to guess at this." I know that you might say "no, I can't even begin to guess at this," it's just that I have an obsession with trying to absolutely make sure in regards to your answer to this question. Again, just choose one of those answers in quotes--you don't have to explain anything, but you can if you want.[/QUOTE]

Matt --I know this obsession-- esp this thought for you --for that reason -- I dug very deep to see if I could find any new studies and I could not. Im trying to help you calm this thought and give you a honest answer but I already informed you with all I know on this matter. Im sorry your correct-- I have to default to "no, I can't even begin to guess at this,"

I really have been trying to help ---but some thing have not been answered in science yet. I care and dont want to see this thought consume you but I also realize you can't control it ---something are just not known yet.

NOTE: I have edited my post with more information, so go back and re-read that post and answer with "yes, I can take a guess at this," or "no, I can't even begin to guess at this."

Give me a little more time by tommorrow I will do a bit more research and I cant promise but i will try --today im in a rush. OK

Thank you. When you do get the time, go ahead and re-read that post and, again, give your reply of "yes, I can take a guess at this," or "no, I can't even begin to guess at this." You don't have to explain anything if you don't want to, but again, you can if you want.

As for now, go ahead and answer this new question I have first, then go back and re-read that other post and give an answer to that later. So here's my new question:

Now just from using common sense, if someone has chronic major depression in which those glucocorticoids are uncontrolled (in other words, the hypothalamus has failed in terms of regulating the glucocorticoids) and they are overworking and overworking a vast number of those pleasure neurons to death, wouldn't that mean that the rate of activity that the failing hypothalamus is using (gaining) in an attempt to regulate (stop) the glucocorticoids is less than the rate of loss of pleasure activity due to the glucocorticoids overworking and overworking a vast number of those pleasure neurons to death during chronic major depression (since the failing hypothalamus is using less activity in trying to stop the glucocorticoids)? Again, just from using common sense, wouldn't the loss of pleasure activity be greater?

Again, just a simple answer “yes, it does,” or “no, it does not work that way and we don't even know if there are moments (brief, a second or less or more or even for longer periods) during chronic major depression where the rate of loss of pleasure activity just due to the glucocorticoids overworking and overworking those pleasure neurons to death is greater than the rate of activity that the failing hypothalamus gains in an attempt to stop the glucocorticoids.” Again, you can just give a simple answer—you don't have to explain anything, but you can if you want.

Hi Matt
I really think this thread has run its course and just seems to be going in circles now.

It may be unrealistic to expect another member to answer these questions for you, although they are to be commended for trying! These are questions you should be asking qualified professionals, and even there, you may not get finite answers as there really are none!

It also is not really fair to try to tell another member exactly how they should answer...they can only answer in their own way.

So I am going to close this thread now.