Hi Wasabi,

Thank you very much for researching & clarifying this info. I think for now, for financial reasons, we will stick with the DW, as it is quite inexpensive compared to the alternatives: $15 for 2.5 pounds -- by my reckoning, about $ 0.33 per serving based on the recommended 15 gram serving.

Keep up the good work. I hope your olive leaf extract experiment is helpful.

There may be a few cases caused by fluoride but most are probably due to a auto immune response by the body. Many people with fibro have a auto immune disorder or within 10 years will develop a autoimmune disorder.

The problem with some people is that there doctors never look for a autoimmune disorder they just blame all symptoms that someone with fibro has on the fibro.

Some autoimmune disorders can be completely masked by fibro like RA, Sjogren's.

If you have above normal CRP, ANA, SSa SSb or any auto immune type antibodies in your labs you most likely have a autoimmune disorder that caused your fibro.

When autoimmune antibodies attack your body they don't just attack the organs that are specific for that disorder. But may attack the CNS giving you fibro.

In my case the autoimmune disorder was a very rare autoimmune disorder called Castleman's Disease and it was found only becuse the doctor could not find a cause for the bad labs that he was getting instead of just blaming the fibro.

I believe my Castleman's was caused by trichloroethylene and the Castleman's caused the fibro.

AUGOLDMINER,

Thanks for your response. I agree that a messed up immune system is part of the picture for fibromyalgia. I am not satisfied to stop there though. Being able to give a name to the particular way my body/immune system is messed up is only helpful if someone has figured out how to heal that named condition. I want more than a good diagnosis. I want to know why my immune system is messed up the way it is and what I can do to get well.

I also agree that fluoride may not be the single cause of fibromyalgia in many cases. For instance, I believe that my fibromyalgia symptoms are due to Lyme disease. But consider this:

Once in the body, fluoride is a destroyer of human enzymes. Being very highly reactive, fluoride hydrolyzes enzymes, thus changing their shapes. Since enzymes are proteins, once they are changed, they become "foreign-looking" to the immune system. The body then treats them as invaders even though they were originally produced by the body. This is an autoimmune situation, right?

Quoting from the definition of fibromyalgia used for this forum, "Fibromyalgia means pain in the muscles, ligaments, and tendons – the soft fibrous tissues in the body." What do these soft fibrous tissues have in common? The body's connective tissue is composed in large part of collagen. Fluoride prevents new collagen from being properly formed. In fact, fluoride doesn't just cause collagen to be wrongly formed, it causes collagen structures, like ligaments, tendons and, and muscles to be mineralized thus reducing their flexibility and making them crunchy sounding and painful. Fluoride probably causes collagen structures to be weaker as well.

I agree that not all of the pain of fibromyalgia comes from connective tissue. It likely is a central nervous system issue as well. I don't know where fluoride fits into the CNS picture. I just believe that many people who suffer from fibromyalgia would feel better if they avoided fluoride. If people have ingested a lot of fluoride over the years, they will have stored up a lot of fluoride in their bones - so even if they stop ingesting fluoride, it will take a long time before they stop suffering from the effects of fluoride.

You mention fibro possibly masking rheumatoid arthritis. Rheumatoid arthritis is an inflammatory condition right? My understanding is that fibromyalgia does not involve inflammation.

"Dr. Donta presented the symptom lists for chronic Lyme disease, chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS), fibromyalgia (FM), and Gulf War Illness (GWI). He pointed out the similarities between them, and found there were few differences. He has treated hundreds of patients with these illnesses. He found that CFS and GWI have identical symptoms, and FM is only distinguished by a positive tender point exam, that is often positive in CFS and GWI as well. Clinically it is almost impossible to distinguish or differentiate these illnesses."

http://www.canlyme.com/fibrocfslyme.html

Benefits and harms of doxycycline treatment for Gulf War veterans' illnesses: a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=15262663

My name is Ron and I have no doubt about ALL the talk on Fluoride Poisoning.

I Started the ONLY Fluoride Poisoning Support Group on the web.


Message 3 at yahoo group FluoridePoisoning

Everything you have ever known or heard about Fluoride is false.
Fluoridated water is the biggest scam ever pulled on the WORLD and is
killing and sickining people everywhere..

I have been sick since 97 My symptoms did not start all at once but
became progressivly worse until the present.

Symptoms:
blurry vision - on and off not continously. got new glasses just
before I went for last MRI reading. Also looked for ICP by looking at
optic disc.

leg pains - hip, shoulder joints - I can't cross my legs - feels like
my joints are coming apart

muscle cramps and charley horses in calfs and arch of feet

mental confusion -short term memory - seems I really have to work at
remembering daily stuff

Headaches ( frontal)_ worse as day goes on

dizziness, like an airpane ride , disconnected , sometimes feels like
I am 3 feet off the ground or I am sitting sideways up on the wall -
no spinning vertigo

Brain fog - I suspect this is what alhzimers must feel like

tinnitus,-
otolaringologist says I have low frequency hearing loss

irritability - lashing out at family for no apparent reason
lack of concentration

can't sleep - up at 3-4 am and can't get back to sleep

Need to lie down in the afternoon - exhausted - feels like I am in a
comotose state - at times I can hear what is happening around me but
I can't respond

Getting fine tremmors in legs & eyelid

Dysphagia - throat feels swollen , hard to swallow at times - THROAT
GOES OPEN AND CLOSED -worse after exercise

cold hands & feet at times - cold all over at times

profuse sweating - sometimes I sweat like a pig for 15 min. after a
shower

No appitite - constant nausea - lots of bread & milk

muscle weakness & myalgic pain moving all the time

Lower back pain and neck pain comes and goes I don't think itis
linked to exercise

hands and heels really hurt at times

electric like shocks in left leg ( thigh, sometimes in feet and toes)
worst ones happen while I am
lying on couch watching TV - doubled over in pain

Fatigue is increadible - last two hours and consider it a good day!

Gums bleed , had periodontal disease

bone loss in jaw,- according to periodontist and dentist

teeth feel loose, USED TO BE ABLE TO WIGGLE THEM WITH MY TONGUE ,

drooling at times

Soft stools all the time -almost diarrhea

Getting pins and needles on chest and back after a hot shower and hot
days and exercise - started after surgery i think

Itching on arms and waist especially after a hot shower but other
times too

Seems like all this happens after I eat!!! things get worse and also
after exercise

chest pain in ribs on right side, then on left side

Heels really hurt as do my "heels " of my hands

longitudal ridges on finger/toe nails

History ( very brief- this is just the tip of the iceburg)

self diagnosed Chiari Malformation - my brains are swelling into my
spinal column - had decompression surgery in 2000 - symptoms
continued and worsened

self diagnosed Heavy metal poisoning - challenge test showed lead
mercury etc. - this was according to a holistic doctor and allopathic
doctors do not recognize these results. Chelated with DMSA - numbers
came down- still sick - then 10 weeks of EDTA IV thearpy - still sick.

Rhum. Doc diagnosis of Fibromyalgia - 6/02

self diagnosed Fluoride Poisoning - may 2002- one night I got sick
after dinner - and a couple of days later I thought back about what I
did different that nite - I drank three glasses of city water at that
meal instead of milk. Fluoride calcium seeks and makes it less toxic.

I did my own blind tests - I can pick out F water EVERY time - my
daughter can tell by my eyes if I have had 3 glasses of water!

I have confronted docs with this - Some look at me like I'm from
outer space, some belittle me, others just laugh.
My neurologist looked at me wide eyed and ordered serum and urine
fluoride tests. He never called me back. I went and got copies 3
weeks later and both were ELEVATED - my blood levels are 10x normal -
he has NOT dx me or schedualed another appmt.
Romhatoligist dx me with fibromyalgia and then I told her about
Fluoride - she doesn't want to see me again!


I found Dr. Myra Preston PHD - of SIBER IMAGING who has a patented
method of dx CFIDS through QEEG. I did before and after tests
dirnking my city water and I think I now have proof that F causes
brain damage in humans and is one of the causes of these "mysterious
syndromes" CFS,FM,GWS, MCS etc.
I scanned the report and will send it to you in another private
email if you wish, as it is 8 pages long.
Please give feed back if you can. I am willing to take this document
to court and start the fight against Fluorodation. I think this could
be the straw that breaks the camels back.



TEST RESULTS FROM DR PRESTON


Mine are unusual as I did two tests because my fluoronated city water
was making me sick. First test after staying away from as much F as
possible for 2+ weeks - second test after drinking my city water for
24 hours.

Highlights:

tested positive for all four variables to be classified as CFIDS
patient on both tests

Impression: RGE's QEEG prior to drinking water was abnormal. The
abnormalities are primarly in the ratios to total brain activation.
the prominence of slow wave activity is recorded in the delta and
theta frequencies. The lack of beta activity alsorepresents an
abnormal finding.

Following the exposure to water, RGE's delta activity increased,
theta activity decreased... Performance on these tests declined
sharply from the pre-to post water drinking... total brain function
declined in the post-water drinking QEEG.

Conclusions: Extremely abnormal QEEG due to the diffuse delta and
theta activity and the lack of brain activation in the beta range in
the frontal and temporal regions. This pattern correlates with the
patients report of severe cognitive loss. Abnormalities such as these
correlate with the limbic system and immune dysfunction, the fatigue,
the cognitive problems. It is important to note that the pre-water
evaluationwas quite abnormal, confirming the chronicity of the
patients illiness. The post-water drinking decline correlates with
the patients history of fluoride poisoning. Exposure to this toxin
exacerbated the neurophysiological disruption. ...

... RGE clearly exhibits diffuse brain dysfunction, which typically
results from a widespread condition such as a metabolic disease
including heavy metal poisoning. This indicates a neurotoxic
poisoning. Fluoride is a neurotoxin that acts on postsynaptic
receptors. This neurotoxic condition correlates with the disrupted
brain physiology and the secondary development od Chronic Fatigue
Immune Dysfinction and Fibromyalgia Syndrome.

I have seen every "oligist" on the planet it seems and the long version of my health problems are on posts/messages 5-10