Hahaha. I love it. Sounds like "Blooie" has been watching too much Hitchcock.

I noticed that typo as soon as I typed it.... I edited the post...but..
it appears that a second post went up instead. I don't know how I managed that? DUH?

Best not to type I guess before my morning java!

I am going to delete the erroneous one and leave the other up...so
your "quotes" will no longer be valid. (just so you know)...

That's okay MrsD. (cheater-cheater-pumpkin-eater)


Al, you crack me up.

And I bet Al knew that I couldn't stop posting about my girls yet. He knew I'd be back! ...

-----------------------

I thought I'd add some pics of my girls. As you can see, Blooie was coming straight for me. She's a toughie and gets right down so she can get to the food first. Like I said though, she's nicer in the winter and being curious about the camera.

The other two girls, Cutie and Rosie, stay on their nice comfy perch until they know whether I've got food or not.

Cutie was an only chicken for a while (after Gladys died in the late fall), hand raised by dd who would take naps with her and everything. She was smart enough to figure out how to survive a couple of dog attacks too...

So, she spent some time recuperating from those in the main floor bathroom, which she occassionally escaped. She has also snuck her way into the house when the back door is open (even though I don't even allow the chickens up on the back deck). So she's a real people person and likes to be held and petted.

It gets a little gruesome after this, for those with a weak stomache... but I figure John will find it interesting for sure. *I* find it absolutely fascinating!...

One attack was bad enough that it tore the skin off her neck. I cut a cuff off of one of dh's dress shirts and used it to hold the flapping skin and feathers in place but (a new lesson for me) skin shrinks as it heals and so she had, for a couple of years, a hole in her neck and we could show people how you could still see the neck bones... they turned very grey and almost looked like stones.

Anyway, the first winter, I waited for her to get some bone disease/fungus or get too chilled or something (though we do heat the condo, it is still chilly). I did bring her into the house when I thought it would be too cold but still, she spent the majority of the winter outside (in her chick condo.).

Then several years after (last summer actually), I went to do my regular 'show and tell' thing with a guest and - low and behold, she grew new skin!
Cool, eh? Anyway, she's still easy to tell because the feathers grow all wonky around her neck and she looks like a chicken wearing a feather boa.

Really funny thing... in the summer, when she moults and her neck gets naked ('cause the feathers are so messed up), the other two chickens get naked necks too. I haven't been able to figure out if they are pulling out eachothers feathers - or their own.

Goes to show ya - even chickens care about fashion trends.

Anyway, sorry to get so off track. I'll try really hard to stop now.

Attached Thumbnails

   

I can certainly believe that most of the gluten exposure from eating chicken is from added wheat. I am not denying that. But after reading about all of the disease states associated with gluten and also spending months reading about lectins, I can believe that simple-stomached animals (non-ruminants), including poultry, could have enough of these antibody-sized, antigenic glycoproteins in their flesh from eating gluten grains (and soy) to not only cause antibody tests to remain high but also to cause disease/cellular damage.

As a celiac, I don't want to believe this any more than the rest of you but I am forced to by what I have been reading. The understanding of lectins is a key to our seeing the big picture. Seeing how proteins/glycoproteins like those from the "big 4" do what they do to cellular function is paramount to figuring out these "idiopathic" conditions. And you're right, Al: Gluten is not flowing through our veins. The components of gluten are.

(Perhaps those same people who have been suppressing the info on celiac disease in the US all of these years have theirs thumbs on this lectin topic, too. This lectin issue is the lack of celiac awareness all over again.)

I find that certain brands of eggs bother me Even free range. I can use my local Trader Joe's free range eggs just fine, but if dh gets the "other" ones that are fed "all natural"; they seem to burn me. I did research at one point and found that some grain fed chickens are also fed some sort of dye to pretty up their yolks. The same sort of dye thats fed to farmed salmon so they don't look like there's something wrong with them :P

You should look into the difficulties of *corn* in our diet...it gets even scarier than gluten. This thread was reminding me of Omnivore's Dillema, and how the grain diet is fatal to the animaks, but as long as they are slaughtered before their organs give out they're fine to eat. If dh ever gets through all the dead stuff in the freezer, he says he'd like to switch to grass fed meat. But...he has to use what he already froze first. (I won't...I made my first "food makes me sick" connections to meat long ago, and have been vegetarian ever since. Sometimes I'm grateful...sometimes I winder if I need that extra protein source, LOL)

With all the abstracts that say gluten doesn't get into breastmilk but all the mothers who have failure to thrive babies that end up being gs, it's got to be components that are there. They must be looking for the wrong animal in breastmilk... they need to be looking for pieces.

After feeding this baby for a year on nothing but breastmilk... he got some food to play with but that's all... and having him right on the middle of the charts.... I am more convinced than ever that it was gluten that was getting ds1, one way or another.

Even though he only grew 1/2 of what he was supposed to up until 4 1/2 months, when we added cereal and pablum at the doctor's direction (because he wasn't gaining well), his growth took a real tumble after that. Of course, you can't see it until he's about 3 years old and then the charts become clear.

Then when we went gf, the first six months he did nothing. I thought I wasn't being strict enough. The 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th months gf (and SCD at that point, I believe), he had the bone growth of what a normal child would grow in a year.

The growth charts are amazing to look at when he turned about 5. You could really see the trends in it then. The thing is, it's kind of a tool that doesn't really tell you what's going on until after the fact.

Oh, the point - yes - back to the point. There's gotta be something in our system that gets passed on. Otherwise ds1 would never have been so sick until after I stopped exclusively breastfeeding. So yeah, I think there could be people who are the 'canaries in the coalmines' who are more sensitive than most and will have symptoms eating a gluten bird/egg.

I also believe, however, that there are some people who do react to chicken itself and may be gs also. Just like we had to cut out the lily and nightshade families along with gluten. Lots of celiacs don't need to avoid them but I think once the gut is damaged a person becomes reactive to a lot of different things until the gut is healed.

I do know a girl who always got nauseous when she ate meat... right from when she was little. It was not an ethical decision for her... As a matter of fact, when she was a teen, she would eat a hotdog at parties just so she wouldn't be different. Then she'd be sick for two days.

I think the bottom line is that you have to just cut suspect stuff out and then try them back in and use your results to suit yourself best.

I also, have been suspect of lectins for a long time... because of ds1's eosinophil ranges. Recently though Judy was saying that she's got her son's e-levels down to normal.

If he keeps his e's down and starts putting on some weight then I may have to re-think the whole lectin thing and I'll be taking ds1 in for allergy testing that I couldn't get for him before because the allergist in our area says they're waste of money and don't really tell you anything.

Hey Kim,

Have you looked in the the Sage Systems test? ( www.foodallergytest.com )
It tests for more than IgE, which can be an indicator but can be a very flaky one. We all know that there are celiacs out there that are not "allergic" (IgE positive) to wheat.

Again, once we understand that lectins do tissue harm before the immune response starts with the immune-mediated inflammatory reaction coming second, then we can see why we can have negative antibody tests. Some individuals just don't respond appropriately. I believe that can be due to an acquired immune deficiency syndrome that makes this so, which is part of the spiral we slip into.

For a quick review, here is the described action of lectins: All cells have glycoprotein receptors, which are normally hidden by a layer of sialic acid. This layer can be damaged, with viral and bacterial infections being the most common culprits. This exposes these receptors, to which a number of things can adhere, including lectins and antibodies. When the lectins of the big 4 attach, there is a biochemical reaction that takes place and as they state in this article ( http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html ), it is like a key going into a lock and opening it. Then, a number of different reactions on the part of the individual cell can take place as a result of this adherence, ranging from the production of hormones/chemicals to hyperplasia to neoplasia to death.

When I read this part, I asked "Well what determines how the cell responds? Afterall, it's just a little 'ol protein." Then I read about viruses, what they do and where they are and it made all of the sense in the world to me that it was the viruses inside that cell, many being embedded in our very DNA, that determine the response to the lectin. It is called "adaptation", as mentioned above. If it goes on long enough unchecked, the adaptation continues and ramps up until the ultimate adaptation occurs, that being the formation of a tumor...which is little more than a protective cocoon being spun by the virus to protect itself and the cell it was charged to protect.

But where does the immune system fit into all of this? It is the governor of this process. It is called in when that cell does something abnormal and expresses certain proteins/chemicals/hormones that attract the immune system. But again, it is a secondary response. Some changes have already taken place by the time it gets there. It simply keeps the would be full-scale "rebellion" on the part of the virus (or the secondary bacterial/mycoplasmal/fungal invader) from taking place.

That is why cancer is a combination of "carcinogens" (which likely includes lectins) and some degree of immune failure. Otherwise, we would all suffer cancer at an early age being exposed to carcinogens from the get-go. Unfortunately, some do and when taking medical histories, these cases usually make sense. They are the "worst of the worst". I think that we will see that these are those individuals who are so gluten/casein/soy/corn intolerant that they can't tolerate any of their components in mom's milk or in their postnatal diets.

I have simply tried to "reverse engineer" some things from what we know. We know that viruses cause cancer. We know that these viruses have been present in our bodies for long periods of time, even from birth, even being transmitted vertically from our parents. We know that cancers arise in areas of chronic inflammation. We know that gluten (components) are involved in numerous chronic inflammatory processes. We also know that the malabsorption syndrome and leaky gut that gluten creates results in immune suppression AND serotonin depletion (an immune modulator) as well opening gates to more proteins that would not normally enter the body (The Trojan Horse effect). Put it all together and...

The thing we have had wrong is that viruses are malicious beasts that are determined to do us nothing but harm. That was certainly my view of them, until I saw their express purposes in nature- variation and adaptation. Then, "reverse engineering" again, I could see that the illnesses they incite are actually their desperate attempt to adapt to the garbage we keep throwing at them (e.g. carcinogens). "Autoimmune diseases" then become housecleaning on the part of the immune system, while it is still reasonably competent...our attempt to limit and clear out the results of the lectin-induced viral uprising. And that is why one wise doctor wrote that "cancer is the end game of all immune-mediated diseases". Yep...if we survive the immune-mediated diseases.

All this "theory" really is the taking of what we know about gluten to a deeper (and smaller) level. And we haven't even talked about plant viruses and the role they may be having in all of this. Could the amino acid sequences of plant proteins contain "living" entities? We know that they do. Could there be something in gluten that we have not identified properly yet? Have you read about "helper viruses" before, especially in the creation of cancers? Again, could the villous atrophy seen in celiac disease actually be a viral adaptation that was meant to be a temporary measure to limit the entry of other bad things but one that gets completely out of control because we fail to heed the warning signs and keep consuming the stuff? "Darn that heartburn."

I hope this helps,
John

hi Dogtorj- nice to see u- i do recall this fascinating theory re lectins and its effects , including cancer.u have discuused it here before and i have also seen the book, eat right for your food group.

are the fermented grains(sour dough bread?) (dosas which are indian pancakes of remented rice and lentils which are ground) and (yogurt, kefir) suitable for some people?thanks-----limpia

Thanks for the thoughts John. You've given me lots to think about.

I'll check out the sage stuff in the morning.

I also think of the reaction as the body's 'housecleaning' system. Funny how a word really connects with certain people. What else can a person thing when the mucous just keeps pouring out of the body? :ew:

You all just really want to stay on topic today... don't you?

See everyone tomorrow.

You can believe this to be true, but has there ever been studies done on the amounts of lectins found in the meats of x y or z animals to prove that it is true? Then, has there been studies to show that consumption of said lectins in said meat will cause disease/cellular damage?

I'm not saying that this stuff isn't possible...I'd just like to see some test results. I guess people can try it and see how they feel. If they see an improvement - HORRAY!!

Logically, you need to start with the most likely causes and work your way down. Get rid of all the horses [cross contamination, hidden gluten added to food, etc], then start with the zebras [lectin ladened meat].


Yes - the conspiracy is run by the same people. It's run by big eastern syndicate, you know