Vic, I am not sure how someone can debate the "ethics" of utilizing a social assistance/government taxed-based assistance program (whatever you want to call them), without appreciating what the specific criteria for that particular assistance program is.

Medicare:
65 = 65
Disabled = Not able to work and on SS (or similar disability)

Medicaid:
Low income = low income

Our governments give back all sorts of money, just like they recently did with the Stimulus checks. If I'm not mistaken, that payment is based on the number of our dependants we have . . .? Now, if by chance our kids' birth certificate was inaccurate (but LEGAL), and that meant we got more benefits . . . then clearly it is unethical to accept that payment (even if it is "legal"). What we should be doing is fixing their birth certificate, not claiming benefits because we CAN.

What the person who is (legally) hiding assets should be doing is NOT hiding them, and let the chips fall where they may.

Cherie

Vic --
Like Cherie and Kathy, I also do not understand your comments regarding ethics, and your decision not to take it. The explanations you give, about not accepting "public assistance" if you have the money to pay premiums has no relevance, if we are talking about Medicare. No low-income person is going to be denied Medicare, just because you accept it. They are not related.

Do you plan to carry that through to also not accept Social Security or Medicare when you retire?

Or, are we all confused because you are, instead, talking about Medicaid, an income based program? Could you currently even qualify for Medicare -- are you disabled, or over 65, or is this a moot point?

Hiding assets would not assist you in qualifying for Medicare, as there are no asset requirements. I think that we all agree that hiding assets in order to qualify for assistance is unethical, but that is irrelevant to a conversation about Medicare.

When I become eligible for Medicare, I will weigh my options based on a number of factors, including cost of premiums, adequacy of coverage, etc. I might use both. I will feel no guilt if I decide to utilize Medicare.

~ Faith

P.S.: Perhaps none of this is what you are attempting to talk about. Perhaps you just wanted a general dialogue about your client who "uses" the system, and, other honest people who don't. If so, I think we're off your topic. Please clarify.

Faith, et al.,

I am just discussing systematic abuses of programs designed to help people in need, by people that have the means to do well without them.

-Vic

It's really quite simple.....If you are 65 and over, or 55 and dx disabled (may be maximum income requirements here), you are entitled to receive SS and Medicare. There are no asset or Income limitation requirements......If you are very rich, I believe, it is un-ethical to take these entitlements....although legal.


If you are DX Disabled and have enough work credits, you are entitled to SSDI and then Medicare after 24 mos. There is no asset limit, but there is a maximum income limit. Again, if you are very rich...no need for this entitlement.

There is also a maximum income limit if you retire before age 65 (62 to 65)

SSI and Medicade are for the indengent, of any age...you have no assets, nor income. I believe it is unethical and illegal to hide assets and income, in order to receive these benefits.

I believe these are the ethical/legal questions Vic had in mind.

I know, Vic. It really does sucketh big time, but hey, at least we're good looking, eh?

OK, Sally. I just disagree, since these are disability insurance, health insurance, and retirement programs that we have contributed to with our taxes. I don't see how that is ethically different than accepting insurance payments from any other insurance program.

I'll be quiet, though, and we can agree to disagree.

~ Faith

I am SO glad I went back and re read some of this.

My sister is one of those who is completely healthy and yet is the first in line at the MD office seeking pills, and paperwork for benefits. Her child has not lived with her in years, but she still collects food stamps/medicaid benefits in his name! Her ex who has custody refuses to turn her in. I personally have called and spoken to the head of the office in her county, only to be told that she keeps presenting the right paperwork, and therefore it handcuffs them to be able to do any action other than give her the benefits. She lies as easily as she breathes. She gets heat/cooling assistance, medical assitance, rental assistance, free dental/ free medical, and so on. Salvation army type places keep giving her free furniture, and gas cards to suppliment her need to ride to an MD office. I am constantly astounded at how many services she makes use of. SHE LIES to get them. She falsifies paperwork, and thinks nothing of presenting false information.

SHE MAKES ME EXTREMELY ANGRY! I stand with paper work in my hand for a free cooling vest, which I really need and cannot afford, and all I need to do is LIE about a tiny bit of my income. I am BARELY above the level of need. I CANT DO IT! No matter how hard I try, i simply cannot/willnot lie to receive this item. NO ONE would check my work, NO ONE would call and verify income. its all done on the trust, or honor system.

So, two sisters, VERY different. She feels entitled to and worthy of ALL social services, and DEMANDS that they be presented. She has been told by many MDs that she is a drug addicted, hypochondriac, and to not come back to their office. She simply moves onto the next one without a trace of guilt. I have MS and a couple of other dx after surviving devestating breast cancer. I am truly sick, and have true needs that are not being met, because I am not qualified for the financial aid, and yet, I just cannot/will not bring myself to lie. I would rather do without it.

Thanks for such a great topic Vic.