I had to think awhile before writing this and I'm still not sure what I will say. Your pain is so great that there is little I can do from here other than to care about you. It's not much and I wish I could do more. But it is sincere. Perhaps it will help. =Rick

Vicky...

You said... "Radioguy. Therefore I must be considered a kook, and everything I am should be disregarded."

One more time -- point to anything I wrote that indicates that.

I'll say it one more time. I think that people who want to enforce THEIR religious beliefs on ME are standing in the way of research for a cure.

Are you one of those people? If you are, then you have to justify that in your OWN mind. If you think that the embryos left over from in vitro fertilization are BETTER scraped into the garbage than being used for research, I'd love to hear your rationale for that.

Your pain is no greater than anyone else on this forum. I'm merely stating my opinion. And, as you will see if you go back through my posts, my comments were not, were not, were NOT directed at you personally. When I posted my original comment on the subject, I had no idea what your stance on stem cells was. I do now, however, and I think you are wrong. And I think that because people who believe the same as you have the ear of the President, this important research is years behind where it SHOULD be. I get to think that. It's my opinion. This is America.

Be well, be happy. I know you've been abused as a child. I know you have issues. I know everything I know from reading your posts. Having been raised by loving parents, I can not begin to imagine your pain. But I also know this is a bastard of a disease and I am willing to do anything -- ANYTHING -- to help find a cure or at least better treatments. You have a right to believe whatever you want to believe. But when your beliefs get in the way of curing MY disease, I get a little cranky.

I'm sure you are a lovely person, and I hope you will accept my comments in the spirit of commonality in which they are offered.

I don't believe for one moment Vicky has not influenced my thoghts on stem cell research. It is one thing to have a belief in them and another to hear what the belief of the other side is. All of us have to decide what we feel is best for us and insure we make that decision known.

Disease is not a gift from a god it is a curse of man.

We need her to keep our morale up while I don't share her views on stem cell research I share many of her other views.

Respect her and we respect ourselves for the fight to regain control of our lives is out there somewhere for us to find.

Dear Rick,

Please do not think I am in pain over past issues. My use of the childhood abuse example was to make a point, not to invite sympathy. That was a pain I dealt with years ago, and have put behind me. Just as I have also come to terms with living with Parkinson's disease and accept what current science has to offer rather than request the American people fund a cure for my disease.

The American people are already pounded by TV ads requesting funding for Lupus, MS, Breast Cancer, other cancers, Heart Disease, diabetes, cystic fybrosis and too many other diseases to mention. Americans have been so saturated by ads meant to pull at their sympathetic heartstrings, that they now turn off when the requests are made. They have families to feed, their own health crisis's to deal with, children to clothe and educate. They are not at fault anymore than I am.

I look at the disease as an opportunity to discover the strength of my beliefs. I believe if there was a way the American people could help people like ourselves they would do it at the drop of a hat.

Rick, your sensitivity is deeply appreciated as well as Thelma's, who seemed to be closer than any other response to my post; to understand my right to state my opinion as respectfully and thoughtfully as I am able. Thank you Thelma.

Radio Guy and Jean,

"I'm wondering where in my post you saw me suggesting that PD was the most important political issue" Please explain to me where in my post I addressed your remarks at all in my first responce. As I recall the article summarized by Paula, about which I was posting, mentioned the view of the author that the cure for Parkinson's disease lay in politics and that the private research industry does not have the money or desire to research for a cure.

If the "devil" is at work here, it's my opinion that "work" involves convincing otherwise well-meaning people that it's a "sin" to use the knowledge we've been given to pursue scientific solutions to the problems that face mankind."

Hitler, who considered himself a well meaning dictator, perceived the Jewish race as something to be exterminated for the good of the German people. He almost succeeded exterminating a race of people who have given great gifts to the world as a result of their culture. Hitler's justification is no different than that for using embryonic tissue. The Jewish people were treated like lab rats because the Hitler regime deemed that the Jewish people were not really human like the rest of white Europeon society. He did not succeed because the rest of the world saw the evil of Hitler's argument and chose not to accept it by conquering his regime. The knowledge learned from the research on Jewish victims of the holocaust was either destroyed or locked away and deemed not feasible to be used due to the methods that were used to get the scientific knowledge. One example was a research test which immersed Jewish holocaust victims in cold water and monitor them until death to discover how long Hitler submarine divers could survive in the cold waters. Even science can be expected to adhere to ethical standards, with or without Christianity intervention.

[B]"I'll say it one more time. I think that people who want to enforce THEIR religious beliefs on ME are standing in the way of research for a cure.

Are you one of those people? If you are, then you have to justify that in your OWN mind."[B]Are you telling me to keep my views to myself? " If you think that the embryos left over from in vitro fertilization are BETTER scraped into the garbage than being used for research, I'd love to hear your rationale for that. " Are you asking me to speak about my views?

Obviously, I cannot change your athiest beliefs, nor am I trying to. I am exercising my right of free speech to disagree with the majority of persons on this site. As Theresa stated, I am not trying to persuade anyone that my view is the right view, only that my view is different and equally has the right to be seen and discussed.

You tell me you never called me a kook, however, the dripping sarcastic tone in your post as quoted above is as disrespectful as if you had called me a kook. You are aware of the nastiness of your abusive post by trying to explain it away; "But when your beliefs get in the way of curing MY disease, I get a little cranky. Funny, I thought we all had the same"bastard of a disease". What isn't funny is that one Parkinson patient feels he has the right to belittle another Parkinson patient for having different beliefs. Not to mention another, supposedly more experienced patient, thanking him for his belittleing behaivior and encouraging it further.

Vicky

Oh gosh...I hope my post doesn`t inflame this situation.I truly don`t wish it to and sincerely hope that it is received in the spirit with which it was written.I wish you could all hear my words rather than read them,for you would know my voice is gentle as I speak these lines.A fault of the written word is that they are unfortunately unaccompanied by facial expressions,physical gestures and sounds...so I know from personal experience how innocent remarks can be so easily misinterpreted.

Firstly,when I read the original post I found it to be a concise and beautifully written account of life with this condition...simply that...and personally didn`t feel any part of it leapt out at me enough to evoke any personal beliefs or issues. That is not to say that those amongst us,who are passionate about certain ethics are wrong in airing their views.They so rightly have the privelege to make a comment and put their opinion forwards.

But it saddens me so much when wrangles are publically aired.Perhaps private mail is the kinder alternative for discussing, and hopefully healing misconstrued phrases.I am just trying to be sensitive here to all involved,including those people who may be hanging around in the background,plucking up the courage to join us.

This site is my sanctuary...and whilst I accept there are bound to be confrontational issues,and human nature drives each and every one of us into a situation where ,if we feel "wronged" we need to put it right.. we so often behave rashly,forgivably so.

Vicky,I have to hold my hand up and say that I am guilty of not fighting the PD cause until it affected me.My family,too,whilst being compassionate to others,be it poverty,disease,loneliness...whatever,PD didn`t feature in their minds until I brought it into the home.This is not a reflection of selfishness.It is simply life and I so admire your depths of belief and your courage to stand up and fight for them.I too ,as a teacher was upfront with my children,they monitored my handwriting and gave me marks out of 10 after I had written the date on the chalkboard. Sadly I have since been forced to retire.I am sure we are all in the public eye at some point during the day/week/month but not all individuals are able to deal with this exposure as well as others.
Maybe it is something we can help each other with ,here on this forum.

But as a Christian,I need to say this.I so have the desire to make right all the wrongs in the world,the inner cities,the orphans,the homeless,the drug abusers.I too,wish that we could live a whiter than white life,where all our decisions were pristine,and squeaky clean.But we are not God.We can only do our own little bit as best we can to alter some small part of the world,and that is being realistic.And we are all going to keep on making mistakes,and be faced with unsavoury choices at times.That is life.REAL life.

Also ,I must add that at my church a few years ago,we had 2 speakers.They were condemning the use of stem cells.I looked over at my beautiful daughter,an ideal candidate for PD and I was blazing."How could these two healthy people stand up there and brainwash folk with their opinion" was my reaction and I left the meeting.
No...I don`t believe in life being taken simply as a means to help one sector of the public,but scientific progress made with a sensitive and as ethical approach as is possible,is surely not wrong providing there is no suffering.

After all...didn`t God make the biggest sacrice EVER? By allowing the untold suffering of His beloved Son...when I see the harrowing scenes of a crucifixion I really struggle with this issue.
Vicky...I still as a parent find it hard to get my head round that one.

Finally,and sorry..I didn`t mean to say as much as this,whilst I believe in life,all life...the best quality of life that one can have....I will also shock some folk by admitting this.
I will fight to the bitter end with this disease...but one thing is for sure.When the quality of my life is no longer evident,I have made up my mind that THAT is the time I will "go home."
This too is against the Christian grain...but I believe that actions ..any actions...committed with the most loving,best of intentions,are to be forgiven,accepted,respected.


Yes..I am proud to have a faith in God ,but I know too,that being a Christian does not make me able to fix it all,behave always in a saintly manner,be all things to all folk,make me whiter than white.And it scares me,that those who don`t have a belief,may perceive those who do in a bad light,if we project this image that our lives and thoughts are untainted.They are SO not.The bible is my blue print for my day to day life...but hell...it`s a struggle at times.And I fail so miserably...so often.


I am human.

x

There will not be agreement about this issue, and I think many are torn about it. I'm not convinced it's the answer, but it's coming - and needs to be regulated. I do have doubts about mixing our cells, and doing something that "invasive" to our bodies.

There will be many experiments (aka clinical trials) to attempt these novel treatments and I am focusing my energies not on the ethical issues of the materials used, but in the ethics of treating patients humanely, to recognize the human participant element vs the animal subject. I've stopped arguing the moral issue, and settled for "I don't know, but I'll stay educated." If someone is going to be brave enough to do something highly invasive to find a treatment for me, I want that person and the treatment to be regarded for the importance of what is learned, not how much profit can be made, although the race is on for future business interests.

If embryonic stem cell research is successful, then the real decision has to be made, and that is pretty far down the road. Because I do have faith in a higher being, I think that the answer will come in a biologically delivered manner. It will either work or it won't. It's just too hard of an issue for me to ever come up with an ethical answer that would apply to everyone.

Big pharma is not happy to be where it is...it always wants more and to get bigger....it's' greed. They are never financially satisfied; must always show growth. Many injustices take place because of too much emphasis on the business end and not enough on the human end.

Besides all that, we each have a vote. We don't know whether either view is right or wrong because we really don't know if cells are meant to help us or if destroying an embryo is "killing" in the eyes of whomever will "judge" us - as in a person's religious beliefs. I do know that both sides are entitled to their opinion and to vote. The vote will decide the issue, and the choice is ours - that applies to both Christianity and democracy.

It's hard for me to figure out why we are put in this position - of having to try to morally figure this one out. My conclusion is we can't - it will be a biological conclusion first, then a personal decision. Perhaps the real ethical judgement will result from how we arrived at our conclusion, and not so much the conclusion itself.

paula

I posted a disagreement with your POV, and you saw it as "belittlement"?

ATHEIST??? I don't agree with you about stem cells and now I'm an ATHEIST???

Good lord!

You have no IDEA what I believe in the realm of religion, Vicky! You've never talked to me. You've never asked me a question. You don't have a clue what I believe about God.

I will continue to be an advocate for finding a cure for this disease. And you know what? In 2009 there will likely be a Democrat in the White House. There will likely still be Democrat majorities in both houses. Stem Cell research will EVENTUALLY get funded to an appropriate level. Poll after poll shows it's what the American people WANT!

And when and if the happy day comes that a CURE is found through stem cell research...

I will support you 100 percent if you decide to partake of it.

I said it before, and I'll say it again. You have the right to believe WHATEVER you want to believe. One can be Christian and believe in stem cell research. ME, for instance. You have the right to whatever treatment for your disease that you choose. But you do NOT have the right to stand in the way of MY getting the treatment I would choose... or keeping that treatment from being developed.

Hi there

This is an intelligent and thoughtful discussion on a subject that is controversial and where it is understandable that people will have very strong opinions one way or another.

We respect your right to have a discussion like this and dont in any way want to intervene, other than to ask that you disagree respectfully and PLEASE refrain from making negative personal comments about other members.

I am therefore going to request that such negative personal comments be edited out by those who have made them so that moderator intervention is not required.

This is a valuable discussion and so lets try to keep it on track please!

Battle over, Admit that I made a mistake assuming Radio Guy was an Athiest and my opinions and philosophies do not belong on this site. Gruess I will always march to the beat of a different drummer.

Vicky

Your opinions and philosophies DO belong on this site, Vicky. So do mine! That's what this site is for.

You might consider, however, not jumping to conclusions about people and their motives when they disagree with you.