[Blackfeather]

Something quite astonishing happens to me under a certain circumstance: when I am in a grocery store shopping and pushing a grocery cart, my PD symptons seem to abate. My posture and gait become normal, my legs seem too function at a normal pace. While my hands are on the cart I feel normal. The second I let go, my symptoms return. Grasp the cart handle and begin pushing, and I am seemingly symptom free. I know this sounds unbelievable but it is true, and I have no explaination for this phenomenon.
I have seen a youtube video of Michael J Fox ice skating with fluidity and gracefullness. As long as he is in movement he appears to be without PD symptoms.
Oliver Sacks, a well known neurologist who wrote the book "Awakenings" reports that one of his patients who, suffered from severe parknsonism, could play Chopin beautifully if you could get her to the piano.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nnLTPPDRXI

This leads me to a statement that I quote from ************

Dopaminergic Neurons

Dopamine is produced in the dopaminergic neurons, one of dozens of cell types in the brain. Dopamine formation is this cell's unique function. Nearly all cell types reproduce. There are only a few cell types that don't. One of these is the dopaminergic neurons-the cells involved with Parkinson's Disease. So there is irreversible cell loss in Parkinson's Disease. HOWEVER, NO STUDY HAS EVER DEMONSTRATED THE WIDELY HELD BELIEF THAT THERE IS CONSIDERABLE, AND THEREFORE OVERWHELMING CELL LOSS IN PARKINSON'S DISEASE. THE SUDIES PREVIOUSLY CLAIMED TO SHOW THIS HAVE ACTUALLY DEMONSTRATED GREATLY REDUCED CELL ACTIVITY RATHER THAN A LOSS OF THE CELLS THEMSELVES.

This statement suggests to me that maybe pwp have Dopamine neurons that are in a dormant state. Under certain conditions these dopaminergic neurons can be "awakened". Another way to think of Parkinson's disease is that it is "insufficient dopamine function". This sort of sounds less ominous than a "disease"...

If, under the right circumstances, pwp can function normally without pd symptoms, how could this be if if dopaminergic cells are lost. What is the explaination for this?

[lurkingforacure]

We've had several threads here that banter whether there is actual cell death in PD vs. cell malfunction. I personally think it is the latter, as there are some things that can revive function in many PWP, albeit temporarily. If the cells were actually gone, this would not be possible.

Also supporting this is the fact that some people who have been told they have PD by PD experts have, subsequently (and sometimes decades later) been told that that they do not actually have cell loss, but lowered dopamine levels. Harley is one I can think of, also Conductor was told she had parkinsonism but not actual Parkinson's. What's the difference? I would love to know.

I'd also love to know the damage done to one's body/brain from taking all the PD meds you didn't need, for years, because you were told you had PD but in hindsight, not really. All the more reason to get multiple opinions from a PD doc.

I guess the theory that the cells are merely struggling v. dead means we all need to take the exercise/healthy diet/low/no stress plan seriously. Easy to say, of course.

[Deangreen]

Thanks for sharing your interesting experience. Sometimes I will have intervals where I feel normal, but cannot figure out why? If you imagine yourself pushing a cart at the grocery store, do the symptoms go away or do you have to physically push the cart? What happens if you push the shopping cart in the parking lot or somewhere else besides the grocery store? Does it need to be a shopping cart? In a grocery store? Maybe your brain is trying to process too much information in trying to maintain balance. As soon as you grab the handles of the cart, it may free up the brain for other activities. Just a thought. There certainly a lot we don't know about our brains.

[Blackfeather]

Originally Posted by Deangreen

Thanks for sharing your interesting experience. Sometimes I will have intervals where I feel normal, but cannot figure out why? If you imagine yourself pushing a cart at the grocery store, do the symptoms go away or do you have to physically push the cart? What happens if you push the shopping cart in the parking lot or somewhere else besides the grocery store? Does it need to be a shopping cart? In a grocery store? Maybe your brain is trying to process too much information in trying to maintain balance. As soon as you grab the handles of the cart, it may free up the brain for other activities. Just a thought. There certainly a lot we don't know about our brains.

I have tried. pushing the cart in the parking lot and I can really move fast.
I have to physically be touching the cart handle for this phenomenon to occurr. I intend to experiment some to see if I can some how imagine pushing the cart to see if that works. My girl friend was astonished when I showed her my symptoms cleared and I became normal again, if only for a while. This respite from PD gives me hope that maybe I can control it.

[Aunt Bean]

What about a walker with wheels and handles to hold onto (modern kiind with a seat that you can turn around and sit when tired are great) Perhaps you love shoppiing so much that cell memory kicks in and you really don't have to "think" about what you are doing anymore if a good possibility. This is one reason learning to use our body thru exercises to react more automatically again....use another set of muscles to do a common thing. Try shadow boxing to reconnect... do a lot of cross-over movements and twisting daily. It is amazing what these can do.

[christie75]

Originally Posted by Blackfeather

Something quite astonishing happens to me under a certain circumstance: when I am in a grocery store shopping and pushing a grocery cart, my PD symptons seem to abate. My posture and gait become normal, my legs seem too function at a normal pace. While my hands are on the cart I feel normal. The second I let go, my symptoms return. Grasp the cart handle and begin pushing, and I am seemingly symptom free. I know this sounds unbelievable but it is true, and I have no explaination for this phenomenon.

Pushing a grocery cart may act as a "sensory trick" ("Geste antagoniste"), thus temporarily alleviating dystonic gait and camptocormia.

Blackfeather, the phenomenon you described has been previously reported in the literature ! According to this article, an 80-year old woman with PD "was able to partially overcome her camptocormia by holding a bar at waist level, like when pushing a shopping trolley"!!!!

Tricks that relieve camptocormia during gait in Parkinson’s disease patients
.
Cristina Semedo1, Ana Calado2, Margarida Dias3, Manuel Almeida4,
Rui Pedrosa5
**

[soccertese]

Originally Posted by lurkingforacure

We've had several threads here that banter whether there is actual cell death in PD vs. cell malfunction. I personally think it is the latter, as there are some things that can revive function in many PWP, albeit temporarily. If the cells were actually gone, this would not be possible.

Also supporting this is the fact that some people who have been told they have PD by PD experts have, subsequently (and sometimes decades later) been told that that they do not actually have cell loss, but lowered dopamine levels. Harley is one I can think of, also Conductor was told she had parkinsonism but not actual Parkinson's. What's the difference? I would love to know.

I'd also love to know the damage done to one's body/brain from taking all the PD meds you didn't need, for years, because you were told you had PD but in hindsight, not really. All the more reason to get multiple opinions from a PD doc.

I guess the theory that the cells are merely struggling v. dead means we all need to take the exercise/healthy diet/low/no stress plan seriously. Easy to say, of course.

lurking, i've read where they autopsied people taking l-dopa for non-pd maladies such as dystonia and possibly essential tremor and found no damage to substantia nigra.
but there's no doubt that taking any kind of drug that influences neurons changes the receptors on the neurons.

the studies that tested neuron rescuing treatments such as infusing gdnf, the ceregene trial, have failed, so you can't say researchers haven't investigated that approach. i think there are at least 2 more ongoing gdnf trials one using gene therapy and another using intermittent infusion. then there's the pig cell transplant in NZ where the cells secrete neuron growth factors.
europe starting fetal transplants again.

[bigguyclyde]

My theory is that PD affects the things that we can learn to do without thinking - or do automatically such as walking or speaking. That is why things that are a little out of the ordinary can sometimes be unaffected. Hence the term kinesia paradoxica.

Some commentators have theorized that it is just the limbic system kicking in during a stressful circumstance, but I don’t believe that this theory fits the profile.

In addition to the video of Michael J. Fox skating, there are also videos of the fellow in Holland whose gait difficulties do not permit him to walk, but can ride a bike like a pro and the American who could not walk on his feet but who was fine walking on his hands.

I have heard stories about a man who fell in his kitchen until he painted stairs on the kitchen floor. And I believe the same mechanism is the basis for the Lee Silverman method of “Talking Big” and “Moving Big”.

Clyde

[lurkingforacure]

Originally Posted by soccertese

lurking, i've read where they autopsied people taking l-dopa for non-pd maladies such as dystonia and possibly essential tremor and found no damage to substantia nigra.
but there's no doubt that taking any kind of drug that influences neurons changes the receptors on the neurons.

the studies that tested neuron rescuing treatments such as infusing gdnf, the ceregene trial, have failed, so you can't say researchers haven't investigated that approach. i think there are at least 2 more ongoing gdnf trials one using gene therapy and another using intermittent infusion. then there's the pig cell transplant in NZ where the cells secrete neuron growth factors.
europe starting fetal transplants again.

OK, but it is entirely possible that those "neuron-rescuing" therapies failed for other reasons, such as they did not fix whatever was making the neurons sick in the first place.

I also think that we really dont' have a true idea of what drugs do to people: sure, there are the obvious side effects like bloating or liver failure, but what of changes at an enzymatic, peptide, or protein level? I have never read of any reports about that. Maybe that's because there are too many peptides, enzymes, etc. to monitor. But they should be. Even if we don't know the optimum level of this or that enzyme, we could at least have a baseline for each person participating in a trial....it would be easy to track and one could readily see what a given drug's effect was on this or that enzyme, etc. Heck, they don't even publicize the fact that sinemet depletes B vitamins, a-super-easy-to-monitor level.

A friend who used to be in the industry told me that putting drugs in the general population was really a crap shoot, because the variations in people are simply too vast to be able to predict what can happen. Made me a bit paranoid, to say the least!

[GerryW]

I live about 8 miles from the epicenter of the south Napa 6.0 quake that occurred at 3:20 AM recently. As soon as the house stopped shaking I got up and went to check to see if everyone was all right. Normally, when I get up at night I have to use my walker but not this time. I didn't think about the PD and for a little while seemed unaffected by it.