[BreezyRacer]

WARNING! Heavy reading ahead ..

Last year there was some interesting research that just happens to tie together digestive issues to mitochondrial abnormalities in PD. Very interestingly it also appears to be able to repair the mitochondria when the condition is corrected, though as of yet there is no tests on humans. No one study puts this all together so you kind of have to open up your thinking a bit ..

A short blurb in Science Daily ..
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0801170939.htm

The actual study ..
http://www.mpg.de/8334548/Parkinson-yoghurt

a study about D-Lactate ..
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/135/7/1619.long

a wiki blurb about PARK7, AKA DJ-1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PARK7

a study that compares digestive bacteria of PD to non PD humans ..
http://psychcentral.com/news/2014/12...ons/78537.html

There's a lot to read here, that IMO can connect PD to gut bacteria problems which presumably do not process D-Lactate and/or DJ-1 and thus create the mitochondrial issues in brain tissue.

And now I'm going way out on a limb and hypothesizing that this same gut bacteria issue prevents the body from methylating B vitamins. Most B vitamins need to be converted (methylated) in order to pass the BBB (blood brain barrier). I do not know about you but when I have tried B vitamins that have already been methylated (you can buy them that way as supplements) I can feel the difference within a day.

So what to do??? I'm not sure yet. For one thing, start consuming fermented foods. Another is to try some methylated B vitamins (look to other posts here in B vitamins).

IMO the REAL thing to try is a fecal transplant to correct the imbalance of gut bacteria, and then study it to see just how long or if such a transplant might be a permanent solution or a periodic one. Sadly our friends at the FDA have muscled their way into fecal transplants and unless you have C-Diff they are not gonna let you try it .. UNLESS you have a doc/researcher that files for an exception .. then in maybe 3 to 5 years you'll get your chance. Ah, the beauty of modern medicine.

One more option to go outside the US, where the FDA has no say.

There are more questions than answers here but some brave souls in the right situation could try a fecal transplant for little money. BTW, fecal transplants are often done via frozen pills so there is no difficulty in doing it.

I would try it if I could get myself in a good situation to do so.

[bluesfan]

Hi BreezyRacer

Thanks for all that info - very interesting as usual (and yes I did get through it all).
Can't say I understood all of the technical info in No.3 - the D-Lactate study - but got the general gist of it - that too much D-lactate was bad for you (ie: acidoisis) but as you say it could be that PD (and possibly others) are not getting enough D-Lactate (what the first two articles suggest) - possibly due to malabsorption. The last article about "Gut Bacteria Dysfunction Found in Parkinson’s" was interesting but also I checked out the 'related articles' list at the bottom and the one on 'fermented foods' was useful.

You're sort of right about gut bacteria and B12 but it's not that it prevents methylation its more that the wrong bacteria can cause malabsorption syndrome (ie not enough B12 (and other nutrients) are getting through to be methylated - the bad intestinal bacteria is using it up before it can be absorbed). To put it simply IMO there needs to be a two step process to solve this - just adding extra B12 (or other vitamins) alone will mean that yes you will get extra nutrients and may see some improvements but you will also be providing extra nutrients for the bad bacteria to thrive. So getting rid of the bad bacteria (or more achievable - reducing to a normal level) needs to be the first step. Then add the supplements.

Naturopaths are big on this at the moment (especially here in NZ) - IBS and 'leaky gut', (with candidiasis the main culprit) seems to be their favourite topic at present. They stress that it's a long (and no doubt expensive) process to 'cleanse' the gut. Like you I'm hoping to figure it out for myself how to do it. There is plenty of online info - although a lot seems contradictory and involves way too many expensive herbs and supplements for me.

The fecal transplant process certainly seems effective. Ironically just a week ago I was at the hospital for an Endocrinology appt. and while in the waiting area there was a public service broadcast on the screen about C. difficile (in a post- surgical patient) and fecal transplant as the treatment. I recognized the logo of the production company (german) so will go online after this and see if I can find a link for you. Like in the US I think a FT would be difficult to get here unless you have C. diff.
Anyway enough for now - time for breakfast - some of the new batch of yoghurt I brewed up yesterday.
cheers bluesfan
P.S. just curious what does your moniker stand for?

[olsen]

There are a number of self help videos on the internet describing the procedure of administering fecal transplant at home. one i found while researching:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEMnRC22oOs

[BreezyRacer]

Originally Posted by olsen

There are a number of self help videos on the internet describing the procedure of administering fecal transplant at home. one i found while researching:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEMnRC22oOs

Yep, I agree, there are lots of instruction and it's fairly easy. The thing that is NOT easy is making sure that you have a good donor. The openbiome project makes it possible to get flora tested ($100 or so) and if you can find a donor that has a near ideal match of bacteria profile you want you're good to go, as it were. no pun intended. Of course some experience in gut flora would be extremely desirable.

Of course these home brewed methods aren't as nice as taking a pill but I would still be game. I've actually emailed some influential people about this but have not heard back. I'm guessing they get requests like this all the time.

[lurkingforacure]

I think there are probably quite a few alternative/holistic practitioners out there that are willing to give advice about if not actually supervise a fecal transplant process (although it will have to be private pay). I have talked to one practitioner, and was told it was a daily process for a minimum of ten days. If you have a healthy spouse, best friend, relative, -heck, ask your boss!-I don' t know that this is that hard of a DIY white rat experiment to try. Nasty, yes, but very difficult, probably not. It certainly cannot be has difficult or dangerous as trying to figure out a home-made transcranial electric stimulation machine

If anyone tries this, please let us know how it "goes"!

As an aside, fecal transplants appear to be used for a lot of ailments other than C-difficile, which to me is encouraging. IMHO I think there is a lot to be learned from those little gut guys.

[lurkingforacure]

I hate when I read conflicting studies, or what I interpret as conflicting studies. Can anyone here with a scientific background reconcile the following article with those posted above in this thread? Here it is:

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/135/7/1619.long

I read this study as saying that too much D-lactate causes major problems, many of which overlap those of PD.

[BreezyRacer]

Originally Posted by lurkingforacure

I hate when I read conflicting studies, or what I interpret as conflicting studies. Can anyone here with a scientific background reconcile the following article with those posted above in this thread? Here it is:

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/135/7/1619.long

I read this study as saying that too much D-lactate causes major problems, many of which overlap those of PD.

Lookingforacure,

I wouldn't say that the studies conflict. Yes, if too much D-Lactate, to the level of system acidosis, creates a lot of similar symptoms of PD. Keep in mind that some of these studies are not based on humans done in vitro (IE, petry dish studies, etc). Also there are many things in your body that can rise to the level of toxicity and create confusion, etc if it can cross the BBB.

The real point of this posting was to try to connect the PD bacterial study (which is still ongoing according to the Clinical Trials.gov website, https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/...1536769&rank=1) with other studies and observations which have been done and might support the notion that PD MIGHT be caused by an imbalance of gut bacteria, which over time, would account for the damages of PD.

Given that with fecal transplants (possibly with probiotics too) we can change the balance of gut bacteria relatively easily it's worth evaluating this as a possible treatment .. perhaps even a cure.

BTW, here's a single patient observational study from Australia that hints at this direction. Note that this patient was given an antibiotic for something unrelated to PD and his PD symptoms vanished.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...arkinsons.html

The same researcher, a leading gut bacteria expert, that posted the above observation had this to say to ABC News Australia ..
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-1...seases/5329836

Here is a wiki to the researcher, Dr Thomas Borody. If I were located in that part of the world (are you out there bluesfan??) I would do everything I could to beat a path to his door.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Borody

BTW, here's a link to the openbiome project FAQs on fecal transplants ..
http://www.openbiome.org/patientfaq/
DAMN THE FDA!

Sorry to keep editing this post but I wanted to add this link which is Dr Borody addressing PD in a slide from 2012.
http://www.nutri-linkltd.co.uk/docum...%20Posters.pdf

[bluesfan]

Hi BreezyRacer
More interesting links thanks - Yeah Sydney's just a plane ride away. However I noted in the Wiki article that he uses Metrodiazanole as one of the antibiotics to treat H. pylori overgrowth. Metrodiazanole is the drug I was given last Oct during appendectomy surgery and which I suspect is why my PN symptoms have increased greatly since. PN is a known side effect of Metrodiazanole but the idiots at the hospital still gave it to me in spite of PN already being on my medical record.

[OlliePop]

I like the fermented foods article.

So if the bad gut bacteria craves certain food and punishes you for not sending down the right stuff, what do you all crave? I crave carbs and spicy foods.

I am going to start eating a lot of fermented foods and yogurt!

[BreezyRacer]

An FYI for everyone ..

You can donate $99 to the American Gut project (there's also project for the UK and Europe) and they will send you a kit and actually test your bacteria and give you a report. I see this as an incredible method of knowing whether you (or your donor) harbor the correct mix and type of bacteria for a self transplant.

Perhaps, even though you're a PD sufferer, maybe your bacteria is fairly normal. If so you there's no need to look into this any further.

http://humanfoodproject.com/americangut/

The samples of the printout they send you do NOT seem to show the Enterobacteriaceae bacteria but the detailed sheets that they post for you in the Internet does. perhaps they would list it if it were in the top bacterias in your sample.

Here's an interesting site about bacteria and maybe even some tips you can use to revise your bacteria.
http://www.uni5.co/index.php/en/whol...-bacteria.html

In short, the research link in the first post indicates that PD patients have little Prevotellaceae bacteria and a lot of Enterobacteriaceae bacteria.

So, test yourself to see if your pattern is similar to the finnish study. Get a donor tested to make sure you're getting pretty normal bacteria. After that I'll leave it to your imagination.