Hi Daniella:

That very question was asked at the meeting. The chiropractor said something like:

"Well, obviously, since we really don't know how EVERYONE will react to this treatment, if we do see that the pain is worse, THEN WE STOP THE TREATMENT immediately."

I remember this being said.

I guess everyone's neuropathy is distinctive to themselves and no one really knows what will happen. But this chiropractor's dad had a very positive result from the treatment and that's why the son is now doing it.

Not being able to to dilate at the capillary level makes perfects sense. Then my next question would have to be whether anticoagulation would improve flow...even to the tiny vessels?

I have particular interest in your logic because I have APS (Antiphospholipid Syndrome) to include 3 strokes & 2 amaurosis fugax. I also have SVID (small vessel ischemic disease). Of course, I'm on life long heparin injections. I must keep in mind that ischemia might be contributing to my ganglionitis induced neuropathy. However, I must say that I find no improvement being anticoagulated...but who knows if it would be worse if I was not.

I can maybe understand light opening those tiny vessels. But I would think this could/should be easily confirmed via vascular imaging studies...and I don't see any documentation to support HOW this works or that it does open vessels. Then again, IF it does open these tiny vessels, how does it KEEP them open for any reasonable length of time?

Thanks
 

Hi Melody,

I wanted to come to the meeting this past Thurs. but I forgot my daughter was off from school this past week. We ended up going away for 4 days, we went to a few colleges, spring shopping and of course I worked so I just couldn't get there. I have it on my calendar for next mouth.


That is a really interesting video. I started watching it and we had a power outage right in the middle of it so I'm going to watch it once I have a better internet connection. Right now it's hanging by a thread.

Thanks again,

Gabbycakes

Certainly good questions--
 

--from everybody.

I know what the people who use lasers and anodyne therapy claim, and the supposed mechanisms by which these treatments may work, but, like anything else, an individual person's "mileage may vary".

I think Mrs. D has a handle on this--the ischmeic neuropathies seem to be primarily small fiber (except for some anti-nuclear antibody conditions which seem in addition to affect larger fibers, such as polyartertis nodosa) and linked to capillary (small-blood vessel) problems, or to larger peripheral artery issues. (Of course, the link between nerve insufficiency and peripheral artery disease is quite easy to see and has been known for a long time--if one's main arteries are compromised, ain't no surrounding tissue very happy--and if one has documentable peripheral artery disease it's likely the capillary level is not functioning well, either.)

I think the vessel dilation effects of these therapies works more readily on the smaller vessels--it's simply easier to activate nitric oxide in smaller spaces. The endothelium, or inner lining, of blood vessels uses nitric oxide to signal the surrounding smooth muscle to relax, thus resulting in vasodilation and increasing blood flow. This "gas singaller" is also helpful in inhibiting leukocyte and platelet clumping. The idea is that the application of specific wavelength energy helps to produce nitric oxide from the amino acid L-arginine by utilizing the enzyme nitric oxide synthase (it may take a certain energy level to activate the enzyme)--but since nitric oxide is a highly reactive molecule and will only exist for short periods of time before reacting with oxygen (it is chemically classified as a free radical becasue of the unpaired electrons in the molecule), the goal is to replace the substance often enough to keep up its vasodilating effects. (Yes, I know, total chemistry nerd.)

I imagine there may be other salutary effects from the application of specific frequencies that other nerds may be able to document.

BTW, too much nitric oxide hanging around is not generally a good thing--large amounts are an inflammatory marker. But there has been evidence of reduced amounts in people with blood vessel constriction.

I may not have understood this correctly. Are you saying that the laser helps to activate nitric oxide, thus inducing vasodilation and increased blood flow? If this is correct, and nitric oxide only exists for short periods, then how can the laser treatments still be effective after 20 treatments?

And also, would anticoagulation (and actually altering the viscosity of blood) have the same effect?

Coagulation factors...and high platelets etc are different from the globulins that are peptide (protein fragments) that are made in the marrow or elsewhere in the immune system, in excess.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryoglobulinemia

http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/total-serum-protein

Coagulation factors are also proteins, mostly made by the liver.
When people go into liver failure, they often may bleed to death, because their coagulation factors are impaired.

It is all pretty complicated. But I believe coagulation is different, and separate in cause from the immune factor globulins. So suppressing coagulation would not affect elevated immune globulin contributions.

You're right. I should have known better. Anticoagulants do NOT actually change the viscosity, but rather alter (decrease) certain proteins to prevent clotting. So it would likely have no effective in this setting.

I still can't figure how the laser treatment could ever be complete/stopped based upon the short action of nitric oxide...if I read Glenn's post right. Any thought's on this?

The only scenario that makes sense to me....is that perhaps light reaches the capillaries because they are so close to the surface of the skin...and denatures (breaks up) the protein fragments so the blood gets thinner and moves thru better.

You know some serum diffuses into the tissues, and returns as lymph. If it gets stuck there in the periphery it cannot return. this would be possibly visible as edema.

But if this were an accurate guess as to mechanism.... it would not explain why the treatment ENDS. In order to end this problem one would have to go to the source making the excess fragments to begin with.

All vibration and light would do is move things along while applied. Seems to me it would have to be done forever.

Don't you just love the interaction between all the other people on this particular thread. I read what they write, don't understand a word, but it's so darn fascinating that there are people on this forum so darn smart, that they all could be practicing medicine in one form or another.

I've learned about coagulation factors, and peptides. and the words

"This "gas singaller" is also helpful in inhibiting leukocyte and platelet clumping."

I mean, these people know NEUROPATHY. You should have seen the chiropractor's face when Glenn started speaking. The guy nearly fell off the chair. He might have come to that meeting thinking he would teach us about neuropathy. He clearly corrected himself once the questions began.

I think we taught HIM something. All I know is as I continue to read these various posts, I continue to learn. I only wish I was this interested 30 years ago. I was too busy eating myself to reach 300 lbs.

But now I use my brain instead of my mouth.

lol

Looking forward to meeting you at the next meeting. You must come. And we talk muffin talk too!!

Melody

Mrs. D.

I have to add one thing that the chiropractor said during his presentation and afterwards. Some people asked "is this laser treatement a cure for neuropathy"

The man was VERY CLEAR. He said many times. 'I must make this clear, this is NOT A CURE, this is a symptomatic relief of neuropathy"

And when someone said "What does that mean" He said "I cannot cure neuropathy, I can relieve the symptoms, make the pain go down from let's say a scale of 10 to a scale of 4"

So he was making it clear, that whatever the lights do, it's not a cure, but the tingling, the burning, the zipping and zapping WOULD BE LESSENED.

He was very clear on that.

Just wanted to share that

And after the presentation, he was sitting and talking to us, and I said "what about medication, what if a person is on medication for pain, and they do the light therapy, how does one know if it's the medication that makes them better or the light therapy"

His response was "It's been our results that many people need much LESS medication after doing the light therapy".