Karen,

What do you think of Daniella's situation?

rose

Karen,

Please clarify your reason for disagreement. Of course people died of pernicious anemia when untreated. They still do if they don't get enough B12 through treatment.

If intrinsic factor were necessary for people to use B12, all the methylcobalamin in the world wouldn't help them. So, I'm not sure what you mean.

rose

Rose I'm sorry I'm confused. I have been on both regularly the b12 and b complex and had 3 blood works after the original one of 2000 when I was taking only the b complex. Now my b12 is 1500. I had only stopped the complex for a week and that was a few months ago. The 3 recent blood works were in the past month or so. I think I did read though that you can have normal or high levels but still not absorb?
Darlindeb25 are you out in the sun a lot? I do know some people with age get birth marks or moles I think with age so maybe the same with freckles. Have you been to dermatologist?

Hi Rose,

First, I don't think that you and I are going to say things exactly the same unless we cut and paste from each other.

Which reminds me, are you saying in an earlier post that you actually wrote those little history blurbs I have on my site, that I copied from some other site?

Let me know, I'd be glad to give you credit.

In terms of saying things the same, I used to go with a man who had owned a chemical company in Dallas, who wanted to be a professional handicapper. So we went to the races every day that they were on, and I regularly handicapped 12 races, many with 12 horses. :eek: Big time work.

But the thing was that he hated it if I'd picked a different horse to win than he had.

So, I started handicapping for a longshot to show. :) And I did pretty good. :)

You remind me of him because you get so upset if I don't say things exactly like you.

I'm sorry I upset you.

Okay... here's one place where our web sites are different:

Yours says

http://www.health-boundaries-bite.co..._site_myth.jpg
.

To me that is misleading. My mother had perncious anemia; until I had B12 replacement for quite a significant amount of b12, I had blue under my little fingernail that was nearly purple...

To me the other people you mention who were dying could have lacked hydrochloric acid and were therefore malabsorbing... and in the end dying.

I don't really know of any cases where someone had pernicious anemia and their blood work was normal in terms of the size of the corpuscles.

The larger corpuscles make for a lot of problems for people who suffer macrocytic anemia with their low B12.

That's why on my site I have the following on my B12 Malabsorption page

http://www.health-boundaries-bite.co...om_my_site.jpg
.

The thing about B12 that is tricky is that there are so many ways that people can become short of it, and there are so many ways the disorder can manifest in different people.

My intention with my web site is to help people see how it works so that they can pay more attention to it.

That's why I've worked so hard on having my site be visual...

:)

Hi Deb :)

Boy, I got goosebumps reading your post about freckles. You should see my bumpy arms. (Best not, though.)

When I was really B12 deficient I had so many brown spots that I thought exactly the same thing: connect the dots...

Then at that time there was a brief news segment on how people with more of them tended to be more likely to get cancer.

So I went to my doctor who pooh-poohed them saying they were nothing but sebacious keritosis...(a spelling something like that.)

But then after the neurologist told me to have more B12, I noticed that a particular set of the brown spots that had been nearly a perfect circle was missing two of its spots...

I had a lot of them go away, but then when I was so sick and taking so much B12 some of the time... I would feel guilty about the huge amount and not take it for awhile... then I'd get all the symptoms too badly to keep not taking so much, and the brown spots would come back.

Now they don't go away as much as they used to, they just fade a little.

((((((((Deb)))))))))

I don't know what to tell you, except that I think there's some sort of connection between brown spots and low B12...

Oh, I think I read a blurb in a book that was at my doctor's. I read it while waiting to see her. She's the one who gave me the prescription for a shot a day for a year.

The blurb said that the spots ARE related to low B12 in some way, but I forget precisely what the book said.

Daniella,

Possibilities:

People actually rebuild stores and benefit more in the long run from daily B12 than from the occasional shot. So, it is possible that you actually were storing more B12 as a result of the regular B12 dose. (Remember everyone, that people with SEVERE malabsorption cannot benefit from a regular B complex, so please don't depend on it.)

So, if you malabsorb only from food (and it appears very clear that that was the case, unless your B complex contained 1000 mcg B12), you were getting plenty of B12 to rebuild stores. And it would not be unusual that your test results were better on that than the usual shot regimen.

The first test could have been inaccurate, you may not have stopped the B12 and B complex long enough before the test to get the more accurate lower reading, the unit of measure could be different.

The important thing is that you are absorbing. The false normal is not anywhere near your result. It is clear that you have been taking has been getting through.

rose

Karen,

No, that text is not from my site, nor is it from any of my writing. That writing is beyond either one of us.

It is not important to me how you say anything. What is important to me is that the information people get is as accurate and complete as possible. It is also important to me to observe copyright law.

One can compare your writing and mine and see clearly that neither of us wrote it. Maybe you have permission to use it, and, if you do, maybe I missed your note stating that.

I will address your other point in my next post.

rose

From my site:

From the history you copied to your site:

Karen Wrote:


Karen,

The writing you have copied to your site states clearly that the belief was that anemia always occurred when B12 deficiency was present.

I did not say it was the only cause of B12 malabsorption or B12 deficiency. True pernicious anemia is lack of intrinsic factor (not an anemia as was thought in the 18th century).

Also copied to your site:

In the section of my site you quote, I am addressing "pernicious anemia" and making the same point as above.

The reason I have spent so much time and energy addressing the problem is that many medical reference materials (thus most doctors) still believe that anemia must be present if a patient is B12 deficient. This is terribly dangerous, because many of us do not have large cells when deficient.

The large cells are not the problem. The large cells are the way most people become diagnosed and get treatment.

Those who do not have large cells are at terrible risk of not being diagnosed and treated.

Iron deficiency is common in people who malabsorb B12, and iron deficiency can make cells smaller. When the two exist together, cells can be normal sized or even small.

Folic acid can normalize the size of cells, and thus the sign a doctor might recognize is not present, but the B12 deficiency still is, and the damage continues.

If you had any understanding of the B12 issue you would know this and more.


Karen:
Here is just one very good source, Karen:

Goldman: Cecil Textbook of Medicine, 22nd ed., page 1056

"Several clinical studies document that a normal hematocrit and/or mean cell volume occur in at least 25 to 50% of patients whose neuropsychiatric abnormalities are caused by cobalamin deficiency and respond partially or completely to cobalamin therapy."

rose

Since B12 deficiency, when allowed to go untreated for a significant time, affects every cell in the body to one degree or another, anything may be connected.

Many individual differences cause individuals to be affected differently.

rose

What's funny to me, Rose, is that you assume I copied it from the site you go to. I don't think I've ever been to that site.

Have you ever looked at how many sites use my material about fingernails?

It's rampant, and that's good.