I worked on new illustrations for my site --

ConsiderThis · 07-17-2007, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darlindeb25

Karen--that is a great website, I have saved it for reading later today. So much of it is making sense to me. I know I have an absorption problem, I have for years. I take a sublingual liquid B-Complex daily, which gives me 2400mcg of B12 and still, I have the ridged fingernails, the missing half moons, the brown spots on my hands, maybe even my arms, memory loss, confusion--so much makes sense.

Can I ask a silly question? Do some of us freckle with age? I used to tease my sister and my daughter so much about their freckles. I used to tease them that I could use a marker and play dot to dot games with their freckles and not, I see I am just as freckled as they are--all over, just like them, I never was before. Not so much my legs, but my face, neck, and arms are covered with freckles now--maybe it's paybacks for teasing!

Hi Deb

Boy, I got goosebumps reading your post about freckles. You should see my bumpy arms. (Best not, though.)

When I was really B12 deficient I had so many brown spots that I thought exactly the same thing: connect the dots...

Then at that time there was a brief news segment on how people with more of them tended to be more likely to get cancer.

So I went to my doctor who pooh-poohed them saying they were nothing but sebacious keritosis...(a spelling something like that.)

But then after the neurologist told me to have more B12, I noticed that a particular set of the brown spots that had been nearly a perfect circle was missing two of its spots...

I had a lot of them go away, but then when I was so sick and taking so much B12 some of the time... I would feel guilty about the huge amount and not take it for awhile... then I'd get all the symptoms too badly to keep not taking so much, and the brown spots would come back.

Now they don't go away as much as they used to, they just fade a little.

((((((((Deb)))))))))

I don't know what to tell you, except that I think there's some sort of connection between brown spots and low B12...

Oh, I think I read a blurb in a book that was at my doctor's. I read it while waiting to see her. She's the one who gave me the prescription for a shot a day for a year.

The blurb said that the spots ARE related to low B12 in some way, but I forget precisely what the book said.

rose · 07-17-2007, 12:16 PM

Daniella,

Possibilities:

People actually rebuild stores and benefit more in the long run from daily B12 than from the occasional shot. So, it is possible that you actually were storing more B12 as a result of the regular B12 dose. (Remember everyone, that people with SEVERE malabsorption cannot benefit from a regular B complex, so please don't depend on it.)

So, if you malabsorb only from food (and it appears very clear that that was the case, unless your B complex contained 1000 mcg B12), you were getting plenty of B12 to rebuild stores. And it would not be unusual that your test results were better on that than the usual shot regimen.

The first test could have been inaccurate, you may not have stopped the B12 and B complex long enough before the test to get the more accurate lower reading, the unit of measure could be different.

The important thing is that you are absorbing. The false normal is not anywhere near your result. It is clear that you have been taking has been getting through.

rose

rose · 07-17-2007, 12:34 PM

Karen,

No, that text is not from my site, nor is it from any of my writing. That writing is beyond either one of us.

It is not important to me how you say anything. What is important to me is that the information people get is as accurate and complete as possible. It is also important to me to observe copyright law.

Quote:

This from your site:

Hypochlorhydria, a term less familiar than pernicious anemia, refers to the conditionwhere there is not enough gastric acid to separate vitamin B12 from food. It is estimatedthat 47% of the general population has hypochlorhydria, due in part to the increaseduse of antacids, some of which are marketed as a good source of calcium.

Plus, research shows that smoking, high alcohol consumption, and many drugs reduce cobalamin, as do some common genetic polymorphisms (variations occurring within a species) that affect enzyme activity.

From all of this, it was learned that "functional deficiency," that is, a deficient distribution of B12 at the cellular level, could come about even though serum levels were normal

Quote:

This is from the Wellness Train Group site:
C:\Documents and Settings\HP_Administrator\My Documents\Plagiarism\ASK DR_ POO's Message Board.mht

Hypochlorhydria, a term less familiar than pernicious anemia, refers to the
condition where there is not enough gastric acid to separate vitamin B12 from food. It is estimated that 47% of the general population has hypochlorhydria, due in part to the increased use of antacids, some of which are marketed as a good source of calcium

research shows that smoking, high alcohol consumption, and many drugs
reducecobalamin, as do some common genetic polymorphisms (variations occurring within a species) that affect enzyme activity.

it was learned that "functional deficiency," that is, a deficient distribution
of B12 at the cellular level, could come about even though serum levels were
normal

One can compare your writing and mine and see clearly that neither of us wrote it. Maybe you have permission to use it, and, if you do, maybe I missed your note stating that.

I will address your other point in my next post.

rose

rose · 07-17-2007, 01:02 PM

From my site:

Quote:

Myth: Pernicious anemia is a type of anemia caused by B12 deficiency.

Fact: That is 19th-century and early 20th-century thinking. "Pernicious anemia" is not an anemia (or anaemia). Pernicious anemia is the inability of a stomach lining to secrete intrinsic factor, and that is the most common cause of severe B12 malabsorption.

Pernicious anemia was named as 19th-century doctors watched helplessly while a mysterious disease caused people to develop a type of anemia and die. Medical people then had no way of knowing that the "pernicious" ailment wasn't a type of anemia and that many others who were not anemic were dying as a result of the same cause.

From the history you copied to your site:

Quote:

1929 -- William Castle discovered that “intrinsic factor” in the gastric mucosa was
needed to absorb the as yet unidentified active ingredient in liver, initially called
“extrinsic factor,” and that intrinsic factor was lacking in pernicious anemia patients.

Karen Wrote:

Quote:

To me that is misleading. My mother had perncious anemia; until I had B12 replacement for quite a significant amount of b12, I had blue under my little fingernail that was nearly purple...

To me the other people you mention who were dying could have lacked hydrochloric acid and were therefore malabsorbing... and in the end dying.

I don't really know of any cases where someone had pernicious anemia and their blood work was normal in terms of the size of the corpuscles.

The larger corpuscles make for a lot of problems for people who suffer macrocytic anemia with their low B12.

Karen,

The writing you have copied to your site states clearly that the belief was that anemia always occurred when B12 deficiency was present.

Quote:

Because blood cells in people with B12 deficiency had been seen to
be larger than normal blood cells, B12 deficiency was linked with the
blood disorder, anemia; the fact that B12 deficiency was known to be
accompanied by nerve and neuropsychiatric problems was overlooked.
The governing belief was that without anemia, there was no B12 deficiency.

I did not say it was the only cause of B12 malabsorption or B12 deficiency. True pernicious anemia is lack of intrinsic factor (not an anemia as was thought in the 18th century).

Also copied to your site:

Quote:

Today it is clear that anemia is only one of many different symptoms of B12 deficiency. In fact, pernicious anaemia with its lack of intrinsic factor, is now thought to be relatively rare.

In the section of my site you quote, I am addressing "pernicious anemia" and making the same point as above.

The reason I have spent so much time and energy addressing the problem is that many medical reference materials (thus most doctors) still believe that anemia must be present if a patient is B12 deficient. This is terribly dangerous, because many of us do not have large cells when deficient.

The large cells are not the problem. The large cells are the way most people become diagnosed and get treatment.

Those who do not have large cells are at terrible risk of not being diagnosed and treated.

Iron deficiency is common in people who malabsorb B12, and iron deficiency can make cells smaller. When the two exist together, cells can be normal sized or even small.

Folic acid can normalize the size of cells, and thus the sign a doctor might recognize is not present, but the B12 deficiency still is, and the damage continues.

If you had any understanding of the B12 issue you would know this and more.

Karen:

Quote:

I don't really know of any cases where someone had pernicious anemia and their blood work was normal in terms of the size of the corpuscles.

Here is just one very good source, Karen:

Goldman: Cecil Textbook of Medicine, 22nd ed., page 1056

"Several clinical studies document that a normal hematocrit and/or mean cell volume occur in at least 25 to 50% of patients whose neuropsychiatric abnormalities are caused by cobalamin deficiency and respond partially or completely to cobalamin therapy."

rose

rose · 07-17-2007, 01:09 PM

Since B12 deficiency, when allowed to go untreated for a significant time, affects every cell in the body to one degree or another, anything may be connected.

Many individual differences cause individuals to be affected differently.

rose

ConsiderThis · 07-17-2007, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rose

From my site:

From the history you copied to your site:

Karen Wrote:

Karen,

The writing you have copied to your site states clearly that the belief was that anemia always occurred when B12 deficiency was present.

I did not say it was the only cause of B12 malabsorption or B12 deficiency. True pernicious anemia is lack of intrinsic factor (not an anemia as was thought in the 18th century).

Also copied to your site:

In the section of my site you quote, I am addressing "pernicious anemia" and making the same point as above.

The reason I have spent so much time and energy addressing the problem is that many medical reference materials (thus most doctors) still believe that anemia must be present if a patient is B12 deficient. This is terribly dangerous, because many of us do not have large cells when deficient.

The large cells are not the problem. The large cells are the way most people become diagnosed and get treatment.

Those who do not have large cells are at terrible risk of not being diagnosed and treated.

Iron deficiency is common in people who malabsorb B12, and iron deficiency can make cells smaller. When the two exist together, cells can be normal sized or even small.

Folic acid can normalize the size of cells, and thus the sign a doctor might recognize is not present, but the B12 deficiency still is, and the damage continues.

If you had any understanding of the B12 issue you would know this and more.

Karen:

Here is just one very good source, Karen:

Goldman: Cecil Textbook of Medicine, 22nd ed., page 1056

"Several clinical studies document that a normal hematocrit and/or mean cell volume occur in at least 25 to 50% of patients whose neuropsychiatric abnormalities are caused by cobalamin deficiency and respond partially or completely to cobalamin therapy."

rose

your very respectable quote doesn't mention "pernicious anemia"

and I think you have two posts with this quote...

I'm sorry you're so upset. I hope you can calm down.

ConsiderThis · 07-17-2007, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rose

Karen,

No, that text is not from my site, nor is it from any of my writing. That writing is beyond either one of us.

It is not important to me how you say anything. What is important to me is that the information people get is as accurate and complete as possible. It is also important to me to observe copyright law.

One can compare your writing and mine and see clearly that neither of us wrote it. Maybe you have permission to use it, and, if you do, maybe I missed your note stating that.

I will address your other point in my next post.

rose

What's funny to me, Rose, is that you assume I copied it from the site you go to. I don't think I've ever been to that site.

Have you ever looked at how many sites use my material about fingernails?

It's rampant, and that's good.

rose · 07-17-2007, 01:18 PM

That is not my point. I don't know where you copied it from. Whoever wrote it, or anything else, should have the opportunity to give or deny permission for it to be used. That's copyright law.

Beyond that, it is important for people to know where information comes from.

rose

rose · 07-17-2007, 01:28 PM

Maybe this will clarify for you:

Quote:

http://www.aafp.org/afp/20030301/979.html

From the American Family Physician:

In a large study10 of 406 patients with known vitamin B12 deficiency, 98.4 percent had elevated serum methylmalonic acid levels, and 95.9 percent had elevated serum homocysteine levels (defined as three standard deviations above the mean). Only one patient out of 406 had normal levels of both metabolites, resulting in a sensitivity of 99.8 percent when methylmalonic acid and homocysteine levels are used for diagnosis. Interestingly, 28 percent of the patients in this study had normal hematocrit levels, and 17 percent had normal mean corpuscular volumes.

In another study13 of patients with known pernicious anemia who had not received maintenance vitamin B12 injections for months to years, the rise of methylmalonic acid and homocysteine levels was found to precede the decrease in serum vitamin B12 and the decline in hematocrit. This finding suggests that methylmalonic acid and homocysteine levels can be early markers for tissue vitamin B12 deficiency, even before hematologic manifestations occur

[bolding added by rose]

rose · 07-17-2007, 01:32 PM

Now it's all out there. People can decide for themselves.

rose

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