I am not sure how scientific this study really was, altho on the surface it looks pretty good...mind blowing.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20071212/ts_csm/ababy

One wonders though if it is really empathy? Babies would be hardwired to SURVIVE... and siding with a helper, is survival in my book. Back when we evolved, life was tenuous and injuries, accidents, happen and would orphan little ones easily!

Reminds me of a psychiatrist who used to come in to talk to me on Sundays.
She was in her 80's and mostly retired. And she liked supplements so we had a lot in common. I'll never forget the time she told me that research is showing, that aggression and hostility are learned before the age of 2. That preverbally babies and toddlers watch the interactions of parents and others and if exposed to violence, aggression, they learn those responses very early and repeat them.
This doctor went to all the lectures around the country. One day she came in and was very impressed... since I had told her a long time ago about Omega-3s and ADHD etc. She went to a lecture finally including THEM! It was a triumph for me to learn that some doctors were interested in this and applying it finally.

I remember a study done on babies and breast milk....apparently they could identify their own mother's breast milk. That is pretty easy to buy as smell is the most rudimentary of all senses....smell is a rather interesting topic. Smells really bring out emotional reactions and memories more readily than other senses.

It seems a complex test for the babies....all the colored circles, shapes etc....I don't think you can 'ask' a 6 month old which they prefer...I wonder how they ascertained which the baby liked better.

Well, my laptop pooped out....I knew that was coming...it was my daughter's old defunct one....I got it fired up for a while but we knew the cord or input was going....I am afraid it is not the cord...I should not have fiddled with it. It kept turning off all the time, so I "mon-keyed" around with it....now I am stuck going to my computer room to the desk top...which in the long run is a good thing....I need to paint in there, get it organized and homey-ized. I need to claim it as my own space.

Is a skill long forgetten in many many adults - so often when one just needs to hear - "dont worry, something will work out" - or "I'm so sorry that happened" - etc.... its not there - instead people seem to have become so self centered they completely lack the ability to respond to others in this manner - which is very healing to the spirit.. I think what used to a perceived gap between men and not understanding (just listening) is not a sexist thing - is universal - and its amazing that someone recognizing the fact that they are lisening to what you are saying and let you know that - period - is invaluable..... (how often have you told someone about a death or similar situation and before you finish the sentence they launch into their own story - when what you need to hear is simply "I'm sorry".) We could reach out to so many others by understanding this need I believe, and help those in pain......

Now that my computer is working a little this morning, I'll add to my other post and Kmeb's.

Real empathy, is not present in narcissists. Or sociopaths/psychopaths.
These character/personality disorders are becoming very common today.
Some Aspergers/autistic patients are also low in empathy.

A narcissist is only interested in others, when those others provide attention for them. They don't care about others basically. They think beautiful music and art are sappy, they think if you cry or are in pain you are weak, stupid. They steal your time/money and soul for themselves with no remorse or conscience.

Narcissistic traits are very high in small children. And I have read that by 6yrs of age this starts to wane if the children are not genetically programmed to be
narcissists forever. Responsive kids can be trained away from this self centered style with time.

So saying infants have empathy... is a little stretched for me. Infants are ego centric and want everything for themselves. I'll never forget when my son was about 3 or 4 I was sick with the flu and throwing up in the toilet...he walked in and calmly demanded lunch. Oblivious to my pain and temporary inablility to get lunch for him.

Here is a great website that goes into this subject in detail. If you have ever been trashed by a narcissist you will recognize the behaviors in this well written non technical discussion:
http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/

I agree. We need to teach kids and adults to listen.

I think that we have forgotten that silence, for a few seconds, to collect our thoughts is good.

I have learned now, "There is nothing I can say. I am so sorry. Let me know if there is anything I can do." is often the best response. I have also learned that there is often a huge response right after a crisis...a death, a violent crime, a diagnosis....then, in a week or two, it all vanishes. That is when I send a card to some one, to let them know they are in my thoughts, or that I care. I used to make a meal and leave it on their doorstep, weeks after the crisis was over.

In my life, I found often people just did not know what to say, so they stayed away. Our family had a member that was a victim of a violent, hideous crime.....That was the hardest. No one knew what to say....they don't make cards for this kind of thing. Some folks came thru for us tho....I learned who my friends were---AND who my enemies were....my 'enemies' came from the most unlikely places....'Enemies' took the form of people advocating for the perpetrator of the crime. They are always out there....this bunch got a kick in the pants when the details of the crime were made public. I think there was not a hole deep enough for them to crawl into. He thankfully did prison time, but there were those that felt it should go unpunished. Enough said...it is still uncomfortable to speak about.

gee-I can here our emergency siren going...the tornado ones...we also hear it for fires....I assume some one started a fire somewhere, with the old wood burner. We have tornado sirens here that you can hear way in the country, as we live in tornado land. One of the best tornadoes ever filmed was filmed just a few miles from here...it was a big tornado but only one person died, and it hit in kind of a suburban-rural area, so not as many homes were damaged had it hit in town. People don't think of our state as a tornado alley but lately we get more and more.

You are right kmeb. Empathy is not sympathy. And when some one launches into their own story that they thinks relates to present situation, it makes me grimace.....it is sort of how we relate now a days.....There is much we can learn from days past, and how things were handled back then.

I think we need to stop and think before we open our mouths....and remember how the days wear on, after a loss...that is when some one often needs support.

As nice as cell phones, email and the virtual world is....we still need a real time hug....that said, an email is still very helpful, especially on a tough day.

of you good people who have shown and shared to ME that true empathy and support...I do truly wish I could give you all, warm, soft HUGS! {not quite grandmotherly type tho? - not ready for that by a long shot!}
One aspect I find lacking in some quarters from some members has been an absence of anything relating to empathy in postings, but rather a postulation to a given or patricular philosophy. THAT particular shortcoming shows in many responses by some board members to many established and new members in need. Maybe it's the old 'been there, done that' response to hearing pleas from newcomers again and again... I do not know. I for one, try to be open to any and all viewpoints, provided they have a solid medical base. New people learn all we have learned from the ages [duh,years?] we have been on boards. BUT I find each new person, gives ME pause, to ask the basic questions again...I find I do not get stale in the process? Some appear to repeat by rote.
Maybe, and I truly hope that this is the case, is that the whys of why we all post here is that....WE came here afraid and scared...seeking help, hope or an outlet...ideally all? WE know what these newer folks are experiencing and that ANYTHING we can do to alleve those fears and help them learn to learn and get the right HELP is key to our existence? And our own ultimate relief.

Oh, Cycleops, yeah about the 'they just don't know what to say' thing? Well, my own brother who has a wife with MS couldn't relate at ALL until I'd done my homework and put out that it's DEMEYELINATION...not from the brain out, but from the out..IN! [backed up by NIH 'definitions' in print, in a holiday card..blunt? yep, necessary, betcha!] Only took two Plus years and they'd been active with MS causes for ages? Once that D word was out there, no more questions about physical 'issues'? DUH? Enuf? At times I really wanna swing my 4"x4" as best I can where I can, ya know? And HARD!

Hope there is no reason for those sirens to be going off! - Me? around here, I'm just waiting for the ice-stuff...sometime tomorrow? I plan to pretend I've a normal life[sort of] until it appears...Then I think I am going to have to HIBERNATE. Better excuse for sleeping not yet found? 's and Good hope to one and all. - j

I think empathy is a gene in one's body. I'm probably wrong, but this is what I think. I have it, my son does not. He is now a robot in a virtual world. He has explained that empathy is just not what he feels and that is that. Blah blah blah.

I've spent the better part of 6 years, speaking to psychologist after psychiatrist about my son. Everyone said "we've never met a kid like your son". Therapy does not work. Every therapist has given up. He won't go to groups, because he knows everything.

He has been diagnosed with both Narcissistic Personality disorder, as well as Aspergers.

Whatever he has, it stinks, and absolutely can ruin a family dynamics.

How we can reach people like him, well I will never know. I do know I have tried. I've been up till 3 a.m. with suicide hotline people trying to make sure he's allright, only to be told they can't speak to me because after all I might be a hit person. Imagine a kid of 20, letting his parents believe he is suicidal and that he does this just to be picked up and taken to crisis centers where he gets a square meal and a snack and a bed for the night. He has admitted as much to me.

I have been told that "his brain is not wired like other people".

Oh really?? You have no idea how many people email me and describe the same situation in their own household.

This cannot be a coincidence. The rise in personality disorders, and aspergers, well, it's astronomical.

If research doesn't get to he bottom of this, I fear for the future of our world.

All these self centered people are developing personalities totally geared to their own well-being. So what is to become of he parents who raised them, who loved them. Are we going to be warehoused when we hit 80 or so??

I don't know. I find it very strange. I remember the old days, 40 or 50 years ago, when kids respected their moms and dads and didn't expect he mom and dad to support them for the rest of their life. When they went to school to learn, and not to bring guns and shoot up schools and malls.

We never had this in my younger years. Just look what is happening now.

I don't get it!!! I never will.

mel

Just got in from my daughter -in .law's speech on how the Day care children
have reacted to what they at age 2 reacted to the bombings..Nighmares
after what they saw still..Some can describe seeing the death,can describe
the smells of charred burned skin. And yet others will look at you she
said,like what are you talking about ,what are all these people talking
about??? Like there parents have lost there minds. and ones who
totally do no remember there father who died one floor up. Then the ones
who can't forget the Mother who change there diaper,how can this be
they decribe it like she was still there making them comfy.

I have always been told you are basically your set in your way at 6,but she
we forget many times who was it that raised them,Dad ,Mom,grandparents
foster care. Her book will be out in Oct. on all of this,And to our surprse,
we all found out tonight it will made into a movie..

Amy's parents divoced when she was 3 her brother 4. One week they lived at
dad's and one week at Mon's..That didn't happen so much when we were
kid's,I have tried my best to remenber this i just don't..Amy and her brother
were close,her brother had no problem with his mother ,he has 3 daughters
never has he let them see his father or step mother..Amy loves all of them,
she refuses to let her pass destroy her future..The brother and family
live in Pasdena,Ca. they had a successful business,a beautiful home..He would only say fathers should never leave the mother of there children..
Last year her brother lost there business there home,why the mother of his
3 little curly hair girls, became addicted to cocaine..They tried the family
except his dad to get her help,she refused,he won't leave her.

Well until something can be done for those little girls parents my son and
daughter-in-law took theem to court...The Judge told Amy's brother he was
a enabler and needed help,and he wanted know if he had anything to say.
Yes you have tured me into my father..The mother agree to get help,
so now Ryan and Amy have custody of 3 little confused girls..The brother made threats and is the hospital,I can only pray he will get help and as well
as the girls mom and they can be a father and mom again..Her whole family is here
and the girls met there grandfather,,I just sat and watched the joy and fear
in there eyes...Who did they stay close to,why Bob of course. We live
in a sad world.Bob didn't try to get there love,he just gentle,read to them,
answered there question when he could..They are very excited we are suppose to 8 inch. of snow,it's late,he woke there grandfather up,and Ryan
I went into the living room,and there the were all watching the snow.
There Grandfater,said let's go out and make snow angels for your mom and
dad. Wonderful the fear went out of there eyes...I can only say what a day

And I have 60 people coming to a dinner at a resturant,oh boy 8 inches
of snow..Hope those snow angels work,I made Hot Chocolate and woke
everyone up,they must know lots of people love them,they still have time.
Bob whispered in my ear that was fun,put a little rum in mine I hurt
everywhere...Escuse the mess and hugs to all..I have a older brother
who is a socialpath being with him is like being on a rolercoaster,and
someimes you just have to get off and leave no matter how much it hurts.
Hugs Sue


.

Just because a person is not expressive (or is introverted) does not mean
they have little or no empathy. These types show their concern by generous
behaviors, but may be uncomfortable verbally.

I have a book called The Sociopath Next Door. In it are estimates that 1 in 25 are sociopaths.

For you Mel, I've seen articles about autism and Asperger's and these patients may resemble criminal psychopathy, but typically are NOT criminal.
So lack of empathy is not always a sign of criminality. Criminal behavior is also connected with lack of conscience. And I think those are two separate issues.
Lack of conscience seems to be genetic.

But I agree you must endure alot with your son. I would find it very hard myself to deal with that level of lack of emotion. I guess that is why many Asperger's patients live alone.