[julleri]

Originally Posted by MelodyL

And we bought our vitamins last night. Great deals.

Melody

Oh no! Did you get them from a store? Have the receipt? Sometimes returns are a hassle, but with how expensive vitamins and supplements can be.... might be worth the trouble.

[mrsD]

This is unusual for Puritan's... usually that sale, which is the best one for savings is only in the spring and early summer.

I get a few things from them, and might get more biotin since I gave my son some of my extras.

Thanks for the reminder.

[nsrsg]

I am new to this forum.My wife BlueHill already posted in this forum about our cases. I request your attention particulary mrsD's in my case.
I am 44 years male living in Singapore,regularly doing excersise and with active life style. It all started around 4 years back with some breathing issues.They are solved after using duonase nasal spray for some time. After that I started to feel tightness in neck, shoulder and chest and also numbness in hand on left side.After consulting cadiologist and neurologist all my tests were normal. Since then I have been consulting various doctors for proper diagnosis for these issue. Last December I was admitted into Emergency for chest tightness. My TMT, echo, ECG all are normal. I visited my home country India 3 times in these 3 years for better diagnosis. Finally doctors tagged it as Somatization and suggested to do meditation etc.They think that it is all in my head, can only send me to a psychiatrist. I spent several hours meditation but didn't help. Recently as my eye sight is diminishing particularly my right eye and my numbness spread to my left leg too, I went to India again for treatment. Finally a doctor diagnosed it as Vitamin B12 (< 150 pg/ml) and Vitamin D3 (14.3 ng/ml) deficiency.
Doctor prescribed the following
For B12 :
Vitcofol injection (folic acid 15 mg, vitamin B12 500 (cyanocobalamin) mcg, nicotinamide 200 mg)
2ml - once a week for 5 weeks after that 2ml - once a month for 5 months. I have completed 5 weekly shots.
For D3 :
Arachitol(Cholecalciferol) 600000 units - 1shot (taken)
Tayo(Cholecalciferol) - 60000 - chew - 1 tablet once week for 8 weeks (taken)

Other findings were
Thiroid Stimulating Harmone (TSH)- 2.6(.3 to 6.02) - doctor said no need to worry about this(really ?).

On my personal request doctor did MRI of Cervical Spine & CVJ and result is mild diffuse disc bulge noted at C3-C4 and C4-C5. But doctor said it is not an issue for now as my neck movement is fine and advised to do some neck excersises.I am a software engineer spending around 8 hours a day before computer.

After reading in this forum, I ordered methylcobalamin from puritan and I am taking them one in the morning empty stomach for the last one week.
How ever I don't feel much difference so far. I am taking Telsartan(Telmisartan) 20mg one tablet in the morning (Cardiologist prescribed this as precaution for chest tightness and my BP was some times 140/90 now it is normal). I have the following issues and need the forum members advise to further diagnose( particularly item 1 ).

1. Constant tightness on front side of chest, shoulder, neck on left side.What worries me more is slightest irritation or anger triggers more tightness and uneasiness in my head, chest and neck area. Sometimes I feel that I am about to get a stroke. I checked my BP while I felt irritated but it is normal (around 130~135/85~90)
2. Feel vibration (tremors) in the body (not visible outside) as if I am sitting in a truck with engine on but not moving. Mostly this happens in the evening times.
3. Feel some uneasiness in the abdomen just below left ribs.Sometimes feel drumming sounds. Consulted gastroenterologist but nothing found.
4. Mild Numbness in left hand and leg.
5. There is a dark patch on the skin above collar bone on left side and similar patches below the knees on both the legs.
6. For the last one year my eye sight is diminished. I have to wear glasses for the first time (for both long and short vision)
7. Swaying and confusion while walking.
8. I fell foggy
9. Mostly depressed, sometimes unknown fears.
Are all these symptoms belong to B12 deficiency?
I am really worried and not able to concentrate on my job at all. Always feel that I am waiting for major disaster. Appreciate any advise or if any one has the similar symptoms and any other info regarding the issues. Sorry for my long post.

[mrsD]

With a B12 that low, it will take time to recover. Often there can be temporary shifts in potassium in the blood. This is because B12 stimulates the formation of new red blood cells, which gobble up potassium. So temporary lows, should be dealt with by eating foods high in potassium.

Potassium and magnesium work together in the muscles. You may need some additional magnesium too. Go for high mag containing foods like almonds, beans, oatmeal, yogurt. You can take a good chelated form as a supplement, NOT OXIDE however. Aim for about 1/2 the RDA which is 200mg elemental daily. Muscle issues, tightness, etc often respond to fixing magnesium.
Here is my magnesium thread:
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/thread1138.html

normalizing potassium and magnesium will help blood pressure, sleeping, and muscle tension.
This excellent food link will tell you what is in your food.
http://nutritiondata.self.com/
For example, a V8 juice 12oz will deliver just over 800mg of potassium, which is a goodly amount.
3oz of almonds = 270mg magnesium.
You can for the most part get both from food, if you're a mind to.

As far as B12 in monthly injections... many people post on the net that they don't feel right using this regimen. So consider taking the oral methyl form daily which is more natural and easier on the body. Doctor's manuals all give the monthly regimen, for everyone. They are basically old and outdated.
Times and understanding have changed, but the references have not. It is unrealistic to expect EVERYONE to need the same treatment with a nutrient like B12.

[julleri]

It has been a while since I've posted on this forum. Things for some time were getting better. I'm having some strange symptoms creep back up again, that I didn't have since around the time they found my B12 levels were low. So I have some hypothetical questions.

1) Would there ever be a situation in which a person couldn't live on B12 sublinguals alone? And they would NEED shots for life? From everything I read, the answer should be "no."

2) I haven't had my level check in a few months, but last time it was checked it was >2000. I wasn't taking shots, hadn't had one for months, and was on various sublinguals (Puritan's, Superior Source, Natural Factors, etc.). Could it be possible to have B12 deficiency symptoms with a level of >2000? (Again, haven't tested but I'm sure that's where my level is right now.)

The reason I ask these things is because a few months ago when I started to feel like I was getting B12 deficiency symptoms again (despite the reading of >2000... odd), I upped my B12 dosing from 5000 mcg/day sublingual to 2 X 5000 mcg/day sublingual (used Puritan's and Natural Factors). I also began giving myself weekly injections again, of methylcobalamin, 1mg/ week on Saturdays. Things started to improve by doing this. I stopped the injections about three weeks ago and have remained on 5000 mcg Puritan's everyday, sublingually. Within the last week I have noticed strange, vague back pains return that I didn't have until before both starting injections and the ramping up on B12 I did a few months ago.

Please don't tell me I need to restart shots! The only other thing I am thinking this is, is still my antidepressant withdrawal (yes, I am still going through that, it can last up to years I have read). It would make sense that this is just a resurgance of AD withdrawal symptoms and that B12 would help cool those down a bit, since it's a nervous system vitamin, and my nervous system needs a lot of repair.

Any advice is greatly appreciated, as always.

[mrsD]

No I don't think you need shots. If you are taking methylcobalamin? That is the active form.

You may be out of balance however with folate, or other nutrients. If you decide to take a folate, please choose methylfolate which is active too. Metafolin by Solgar is one brand. 800mcg a day is plenty for most people.

I'd try to stay on a fixed plan...say just one form of B12 daily at a regular dose, so your body can settle down and use it properly.
Say 5mg daily. Then get tested in 3 months, and do not take any for a week before the test. Injections flood the system suddenly and within 72 hrs that dose is gone. You can develop a see/saw phenomenon, with highs and lows, which you may be feeling.

B12 is not only one thing that works in the nervous system. Magnesium, folate, bcomplex and omega-3 fatty acids also do lots of jobs there.

[julleri]

Originally Posted by mrsD

No I don't think you need shots. If you are taking methylcobalamin? That is the active form.

You may be out of balance however with folate, or other nutrients. If you decide to take a folate, please choose methylfolate which is active too. Metafolin by Solgar is one brand. 800mcg a day is plenty for most people.

I'd try to stay on a fixed plan...say just one form of B12 daily at a regular dose, so your body can settle down and use it properly.
Say 5mg daily. Then get tested in 3 months, and do not take any for a week before the test. Injections flood the system suddenly and within 72 hrs that dose is gone. You can develop a see/saw phenomenon, with highs and lows, which you may be feeling.

B12 is only one thing that works in the nervous system. Magnesium, folate, bcomplex and omega-3 fatty acids also do lots of jobs there.

Thank you, MrsD. I always appreciate your knowledge and advice.

I did a bad thing this morning. I gave myself a shot of methylcobalamin, but then I looked at the vial and noticed it expired on 9/5/12! Ugh, can't believe I didn't see that. I should be OK, right? I'm thinking the worst that will "happen" is it's too inactive to still work, and will simply do nothing. I hope I don't get ill from an expired shot.

I hope I don't need shots. To be safe, I picked up another refill on that methylcobalamin at my compounding pharmacy this morning. It expires 11/25... I didn't know it didn't last very long at all.

I do take methylcobalamin in the sublingual form, too. I never use cyanocobalamin anymore. I also do still take dibencozide everyday, personal preference. I notice when I do not take it, my appetite is poor.

I notice you said B complex. I have never tried a B complex, but it has always piqued my curiosity. I take a multivitamin that has 100% RDA for all the other Bs. It's Target's Up & Up brand, and is actually pretty good and rated pretty fairly (I think I saw it in Consumer Reports or something of that nature). However, I have thought about maybe trying a B complex that has the active forms of the Bs in it, but at a very, very low dose (maybe only 100% RDA or so). I can't find one! Would you happen to know of any off the top of your head? Also, my B6 was kind of high when it was tested back in May. I don't want high B6. It was 47.9 (the range is 2.1 - 21.7).

I may not worry about other Bs since I can't find one that isn't super mega dosed and has inactive forms in it.

[mrsD]

B-Right by Jarrow has a nice formula.

http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas...eggie-Caps/110

It has a modest formula with not too high levels of B6, and has activated folate, B6 and B12 in it. Of course the B12 is not really high enough for intense treatment.
You don't have to take this every day...you can do every other day or twice a week, to start, if the B6 worries you.

Many people over the years who have posted here have used it, with success. I believe it is available online at other places too, and perhaps Amazon now.

Those compounded injections, may not have a preservative in them, and in that case injecting them may be problematic. I'd call the compounding pharmacy up and ask. I hope you are keeping them in the refrigerator? Most of the time that storage is recommended.

What can happen with very high dose vitamin supplementation that lasts a long time, many months or years, there can be a vitamin dependency syndrome that occurs. This is one reason I don't recommend really high doses of anything.

Vit C was the first to be recognized as causing this. And I think it is possible with other vitamins. It involves the body "getting used" to very high doses, of some thing, and then over time the chemistry and enzymes, then "expect" this flood all the time. Withdrawing the vitamin then can cause deficiency symptoms. In the case of mega C dosing, trying to reduce may produce scurvy in some people.

http://orthomolecularvitamincentre.c.../dependencies/

Some dependencies may be inherited like B6 dependency in infants who have neonatal seizures, that respond to high dose B6. But cases of induced dependency also occur, for whatever reason.
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/985667-overview

http://books.google.com/books?id=QBJ...ndency&f=false

So I think it is important for you to find a dose, that works for you and keep it steady. Flooding systems here and there may not work over the long haul. Stopping and starting high dose apparently is not working well for you.

[julleri]

Originally Posted by mrsD

B-Right by Jarrow has a nice formula.

http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas...eggie-Caps/110

It has a modest formula with not too high levels of B6, and has activated folate, B6 and B12 in it. Of course the B12 is not really high enough for intense treatment.
You don't have to take this every day...you can do every other day or twice a week, to start, if the B6 worries you.

Many people over the years who have posted here have used it, with success. I believe it is available online at other places too, and perhaps Amazon now.

Those compounded injections, may not have a preservative in them, and in that case injecting them may be problematic. I'd call the compounding pharmacy up and ask. I hope you are keeping them in the refrigerator? Most of the time that storage is recommended.

What can happen with very high dose vitamin supplementation that lasts a long time, many months or years, there can be a vitamin dependency syndrome that occurs. This is one reason I don't recommend really high doses of anything.

Vit C was the first to be recognized as causing this. And I think it is possible with other vitamins. It involves the body "getting used" to very high doses, of some thing, and then over time the chemistry and enzymes, then "expect" this flood all the time. Withdrawing the vitamin then can cause deficiency symptoms. In the case of mega C dosing, trying to reduce may produce scurvy in some people.

http://orthomolecularvitamincentre.c.../dependencies/

Some dependencies may be inherited like B6 dependency in infants who have neonatal seizures, that respond to high dose B6. But cases of induced dependency also occur, for whatever reason.
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/985667-overview

http://books.google.com/books?id=QBJ...ndency&f=false

So I think it is important for you to find a dose, that works for you and keep it steady. Flooding systems here and there may not work over the long haul. Stopping and starting high dose apparently is not working well for you.

Thank you for replying, MrsD.

Well it appears I have a bad cold again. I had a severe sore throat last night. I'm taking some EmergenC today and trying to rest. Later I will try to get a bit of sun for natural vitamin D (it will be in the upper 80s here today, in Phoenix, AZ).

I appreciate your advice. I do keep the injection solution methylcobalamin refrigerated, yes. I don't think the injection did anything to me yesterday, aside from make my thigh muscle a little sore. I'm not going to continue to use it, but I do like to have it on hand as an "emergency."

Thanks for the info on vitamin dependencies. I knew about B6 dependency (I have read your B6 thread some time ago), but didn't know it can happen with virtually any nutrient. I'm wondering if this is what will happen to me with B12. This link (http://www.doctoryourself.com/dependency.html) also talks about vitamin dependency, and discusses well-known B3 enthusiast Dr. Abram Hoffer, who found that after treating POW victims who became severely nutrient deficient over a long term period of time, the victims needed unusually high amounts of vitamins on a long-term basis. Since I may have been B12 deficient for many years now, I'm wondering if my body is simply going to require high dose of this vitamin for the rest of my life. Although, I have read that, after a period where some people take 10mg a day, that it may not be for life one would need that much all the time. It takes time to replenish the liver, and I'm sure within the first six months to a year, that part of the megadose goes to both nerve repairs and liver replenishment.

I will try sticking to doses of 1-to-2 X 5000 mcg per day and see how I feel. I can't imagine needing any more than that. Besides, that gets expensive. Shots are very expensive, too, which is why I don't want to continue them for life, if the high-dose sublinguals will work just as well if not better.

I met a man I was possibly going to rent a room from, who after I told him I was B12 deficient, told me that a long time ago was diagnosed with pernicious anemia. He takes only 1,000 mcg/day of sublingual B12, each and every morning but this is after doing this for quite some time I imagine. He does fine on it. No shots. (I don't believe.)

Again, a lot of this is likely antidepressant withdrawal issues. I can't believe I spent all those years putting all those toxins into my nervous system, all the while depriving it (of course not by my own fault or means ... I suspect this all came about for me from using proton pump inhibitors for years, not knowing the potential damage that could cause down the road) of a nerve vitamin.

5 - 10 mg of B12 should be OK, I am thinking and hoping. About the other Bs, I am not sure... I have check out Jarrow's B Right but read mixed reviews. I do like the methylated and co-enzymated forms of the Bs, but I don't like some of the negative reviews I read such as the packaging (the plastic bottling) contains a plastic that is carcinogenic? And that also one of the fillers in the pill is carcinogenic? I don't know how true this is or to what degree it is a potential problem. Also, it contains straight niacin, which can cause a flush sensation. I have never experienced one of these, but have read about them, and, knowing my super-sensitive self, could imagine myself freaking out and having a full-blown panic attack from such an instance. If it only contained niacinamide (which, ironically, is spposedly good at quelling panic and anxiety, in fact valium is said to be modeled after the chemical structure of niacinamide), then I may consider it.

Thanks again for the info.

Jason

[mrsD]

There is a pretty good oral GABA now. I used it last May, and continue with it now at 1/2 dose. It is called PharmaGaba.
We lost our young cat last May, and I was a wreck for weeks looking for her (to no avail).

Natural factors used to make it, but Amazon stopped carrying it in the capsule while I was on vacation. I just ordered the newer company called PharmaGaba Gold.
http://www.amazon.com/GABA-Supplemen...ds=pharma+gaba

GABA is antianxiety and not supposed to work orally, but this one seems to....made a different way using a natural source.
I tend to be anxious at night, and sometimes upNorth in the spooky dark woods on vacation too.

I find it very calming without hangover or side effects. When I was a wreck I used it twice a day, but now only one at bedtime.
The new brand is slightly less expensive than the old Natural Factors was.