Community Guidelines Discussion
 

Please use this thread to discuss the community guidelines. Thank you.

Every community online (and offline, too!) has a set of rules or guidelines which they follow. People don't walk down the street naked in your neighborhood (or if they do, you sure do live in an interesting neighborhood!), break a window in your house on purpose, or yell 'fire' in a crowded movie theater when there's no fire, and that's all very good and helpful because it allows folks to live their lives. In society, most of that behavior is governed by laws.

In social and support groups, like this one here, behavior is governed more by social mores and norms. And to help establish some minimum norms, we spent some time putting together a set of Community Guidelines. These are guidelines, not hard and fast rules. Exceptions can and will be made. They are here to help people know what to expect from the community and the folks who have volunteered to help oversee it. Violating a guideline is more likely to get you a PM than anything else.

Yes, we used the guidelines from Psych Central as a blueprint for these, and made some changes. Why? Because we've spent 7 years refining the Psych Central guidelines and, while not perfect, they are a good foundation to build upon.

If you have any specific questions, concerns, whatever, this is a good place to post them. I'll try and answer each and every one of them.

Best,
John

thank you docjohn. i hope you are feeling better.

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j1...aBirdd/wav.gif

I find your guidelines more than fair - not a problem as far as I'm concerned.

I appreciate having the guidelines posted. I am more than a little surprised to see:

* All administrative issues

As one of the forbidden topics.

I will delete all my posts and would appreciate you removing my membership tomorrow so I have time to delete my posts tonight. I consider these restrictions to give the moderators far more authority than BT1 moderators.

This forum has permitted bashing people who are not members by name and bashing other forums, but then stops a thread where no one was attacked or hostile so it can be reviewed???????

And we have can be banned for discussing administrative issues? So -- its okay to bash moderators and other forums, but not to discuss the administration of this one???????

Sorry, I have a sense of fair play.

Two things to be real clear about--

1. NOBODY GETS BANNED FOR VIOLATING A GUIDELINE ONCE. Nobody. Ever. We're not trigger-happy on the banning or suspensions. You will get a PM. You do it again, you'll probably just get another PM (depends on the circumstances and such). Do it a third time, yes, we're going to start getting a little annoyed and start talking about a suspension for a day or something.

2. Not sure what the point about talking about administrative issues in public serves. We administer the forums private, mostly through PMs to individual members. PMs are, to me, like email -- you don't share them with others unless you have permission.

The point of this guideline is that we don't want to get into long, drawn-out discussions for every little administrative action. I don't appreciate constant second-guessing of decisions (as, I suspect, most people don't), and since I can't predict how much second-guessing there will be (although I have a sense of it already), it's best to just make it a simple constant.

The best part about all of this? THE GUIDELINES ARE OPEN FOR DISCUSSION! :) Make a case for why this guideline shouldn't be there, and I'm happy to listen.

Hence, this thread.

Thanks,
John

So if my passion is pet adoption or a cure for breast cancer, should those links go in just my profile? Not in my signature in posts? I think that's what I'm reading but sometimes I misread stuff.

And I started blathering away in another thread to Doc before I saw that comments should be made here about the terms.

So...we should only discuss the illness at hand in any particular forum but not about, oh, what movie we saw last night. Or, what great recipe our aunt gave us?

We've had a tendency to do that in Suvivors of Suicide forum, but maybe we shouldn't have been.

Just wondering. :confused: I have fibro, CMP, ADD, depression, deupytrens syndrome, ulcerative colitis, TMJ, a shot spine....my brain doesn't know how to function anymore so I'm must wondering, don't mean to be a pain in the *****.

since the guidelines don't say this, how would anyone know?

I totally agree - but then why is second guessing decisions made on other forums allowed?

I have already posted my objection to the ability of moderators to just end threads which are neither hostile, abusive, or containing personal attacks.

I believe if one is going to belong to a forum they should abide by the TOS, and the ability of moderators to just do that isn't something I am comfortable with.

Hence, my request to have my membership deleted. I have deleted all posts that I can except in this thread. The others are in threads which have been locked. Please delete my membership and those threads.

At the time those posts were made, locking threads wasn't done or permitted, and I would rather not have those posts remaining if I am not a member.

Thank you for your efforts. I think many people will be quite happy with the TOS you have outlined. I am just not one of them - and I think one should be willing to abide by the rules in order to be a member.

Understood and I appreciate your feedback.

I think we can make exceptions for links in signatures for charities, causes, things like that. I can update the guidelines to reflect that, sure thing.

As for what's discussed in each and every forum, I think I'll leave that to the community to decide. If folks are okay with off-topic (OT) discussions in every forum, I will be too.

John

DocJohn

I have read the guidelines and they appear to cover the concerns I've had about getting involved with this site. I am also a member of BT1 but didn't get as involved as I have been on this site. I do have one question and it involves "triggers". I'm not sure what you mean by that. Could someone explain it to me and also where do you get the trigger icon?

Doc John & to "whomever else it may concern"-

I have a question that's been "rattling around" in my brain and I'm not trying to be a comedian here :D , and am not talking about anything that's happened YET- just one of those "what ifs". For the sake of argument, what if one of the mods happens to be rude in a reply to a poster or says something in their regular, "un mod" self in a reply to a thread that seems to be rude or uncalled for.....and people decide to hit that little red triangle and report the post, would that mean that they're reporting a mod to the mods? What if that particular mod moderating a particular forum was the one who had been rude? Would that mean we were reporting that mod to him/her own self?! Again, not trying to be a smart@#$ but would another mod then have to send the rude mod a PM or what? Just my curiosity....

Does this not sound more accurate


The purpose of our Community is simple -- it's devoted to support for the neurological and mental health of all of our membes as well as any related health issues. In that veinof support you should endeavor to be civil and treat others as you expect to be treated

than this



the followig statement needs to be elaborated upon to include your current changes as to this forum being included

such as

Soliciting others to join comparable health communities.




Then again that is such an overbearing statement of almost ownership of an individual that maybe should be eliminated

In MY opinion if a mod is rude to a member or fellow mod YES if you see this a PM should be sent to either Kimmy or Doc.
Just because we are mods doesn't give us any special treatment and we need to obide by the same rules. We are still members too:D

Hugs

a question about fair use laws...
 

Many of us posted in the past using the guidelines from OBT...

Which were, if you sited and quoted the author you could post copyrighted
materials. Many of us who are more medically oriented did this alot.

In your guidelines:
For example, I have a membership to a great science magazine called
Science News. www.sciencenews.org

Right on their articles is a permission to "email this to a friend" statement.
When I post copies for people, I quote the link, and "quote" the article.

Using copyrighited materials with the INTENT of making them your own words,
does infringe on copywrite,esp to make $$.. But quoting, and using "fair use" ....
Is that allowable here? I am unclear and confused.
example:
http://www.piercelaw.edu/tfield/copynet.htm

I also would like some more information about "trigger" I had no idea that certain topics or pictures of food could be a trigger. I am learning here too. I can't find the red X either. I would never want something I may post to cause someone else any problem. Thanks, Sue

Snoozie and Trekker,

In the guidelines (linked in the first post of the thread) it says:

So it looks to me like that icon hasn't been added yet? I think.

And ((Mrs. D))...LOL, I STILL do a doubletake when I see your picture with the red x, LOL. Too cute.

Okay, back to the discussion. :o

I have to admit, the Guidelines looked a tish scary at first,
but after hearing DocJohn's explaination and, with the fact,
that they are only guidelines and are not written in stone,
I am a bit less intimidated.:)

Thanks DocJohn, I may hold you too that 1st PM friendly
warning. :D


Thanks for all your hard work and I hope you are feeling
better. And thanks Mods for knowing that you must be good too.;)

I don't recall having seen guidelines or TOS that gave permission to use copyrighted materials. But that is of no matter; the only person or entity that can give permission is the owner of the copyright (which is not always the author or creator of the work). In cases where permission is granted, the author is credited and the source is cited when it is reproduced.

Dr. John is the keeper of the guidelines, and I am not in any way interpreting them for him. I offer the following as general information only.

One of the most misunderstood provisions of copyright law deals with fair use.

"Fair use" refers to copying and using a SMALL PORTION of a work without permission. What consititutes fair use changes from situation to situation, depending on the piece of work, on how much will be taken, and on what the "fair use" material will be used for. Fair use might be a paragraph, a page or a sentence. Fair use is awash in gray areas, but one thing is clear.

Fair use is most assuredly not a provision that allows people to use/reproduce/copy an entire work as long as there's a promise not to make money or plagiarize (claim ownership).

"Quoting" an article means citing a piece of it and setting that piece off in quotation marks. Quite acceptable (within reason) when the source is cited. That's different from pasting an entire article, which - if not in the public domain or covered by permission - is a copyright violation.

Copyright violation is unauthorized use – appropriation – of someone else's article, poem, photography, music, intellectual property, creative works, art, etc. Theft. Illegal. Period.

Using a Web site link that allows an article to be sent to an individual via a link set up for that purpose cannot in any way be construed as being related to copyright.

From the link you posted above (by the Franklin Pierce Law Center):

User's Risks -- The Bottom Line

"Those who copy others' text are ever more easily found with search engines. Titles, markers and the like may also enable owners to locate improper copies of sounds or images.

Copyright law precludes most uses of others' works without explicit or implied permission. Because some uses are okay, people often ask which uses are okay. Such questions often miss the point. The most important risk is not of liability, it is of suit."

In the context of a medical article for use on a forum, it is a far better choice and very wise to post a summary statement (or the first paragraph or two), followed by a link to the entire article. As for pasting an entire article, the basic rule to follow is, "No permission? No post."

(Information, by the way, cannot be copyrighted. I can write an entire book around the alphabet. The book is mine, the writing is mine, they cannot be copied, but the alphabet is there for the picking. Anyone is free to use published information.)

TCC

You bring very good information on that.

What I've always done, in an attempt to stay safe there, is copy a paragraph or so (that I feel is the most important for others to view) along with identifying information, then post the link to the article for a full reading by viewers.

I've always tried to stay safe there (fair use and copyright laws). Just sharing my personal practice :)

KD

Hi, KimmyDawn, I'm very happy to meet you. :)

What you've described is perfect. Thank you very much!

TCC

a trigger icon?

many of us on the epilepsy forum have photosensitive seizures triggered by graphics. icons are graphics. am i being required to post an icon that will trigger seizures to announce that the post will trigger seizures?

since i have all graphics turned off, so that they will not trigger my seizures, i have no way of knowing what an icon is unless the icon has a description that shows when i run my mouse over it. does this mean that i have to mouse over every icon in the forum in order to make sure none of them are trigger icons?

perhaps there is a better way to do this.

If the forum images have alt tags, or whatever the similar descriptor is in php (I only really know about html), then you should be able to tell your browser to automatically expand the words so that you can read them.

Another (which I've seen used elsewhere) is to use TRIGGER in the same way as OT (for off-topic) in the thread title.

Swift

I couldn't sleep last night for thinking about this one.....Off Topic posts.....I have a Tramatic Brain Injury with memory loss.....I also have a shattered spine with chronic pain......

I think the hardest part for me to deal with is the emotional distress I have to deal with.....from these issues........I didn't want to post in the TBI forum or the emotional distress forum.....because there was never anyone in them....I could post in those forums on the OBT and maybe a few people would come in there in a week...!...

I posted in the chronic pain forum, because that is where there were people all of the time.....at least there was someone there who would respond.....people lived there.....I used them to help me think sometimes........that is where the people I know over the last 8 years posted......

all of my posts over the years were OT........but I posted NPR, not pain related, before each of my posts....so that people would know and they didn't have to read it....that is the thing that made braintalk different, in the sense, that it was okay to have off topic posts and JL supported that....

It would break my heart, after all of this, if my posts were to be removed and sent somewhere else because they were labeled as inappropriate for a particular forum.....I came to this place to be with the 'family' that I know.....I really hope you don't take that freedom away from me, because we must fall into specific catagories........

I hope I pled my case well enough that you agree to have off topic posts in the forums......we shared our lives there not just specific pain issues only....

I feel much worry over this issue.........

Blessings on us all......
Hummer

Yes, we will make an exception for such copying and pasting here, because for educational purposes, you can legally do so.

We will endeavor to have more than one person assigned to every forum, even if kimmydawn (kd) and I have to be the second person. This will ensure every report is taken seriously, even those against the mods themselves.

If you *ever* have any doubts about anything going on here, PM me or kd and you will get an answer. It may not be immediate (give us some time to look into an issue), but you will get an answer. Unlike other forums, we're here, we answer PMs, and we will be here in the future.

John

And I think you make a very good case for allowing any and all OT or NPR posts in any forum!

Something that would be helpful for newcomers to our community would probably be a little dictionary of terms and what they mean.

OT = Off-topic post
NPR = Not pain related post

etc. etc.

I'd love it if someone could please compile a little one to get us started!!

Thanks,
John

If someone hasn't yet answered this, I'll make an attempt to do so.....

Triggers can be any thing that can be emotionally distressing to a person.

Since it can be anything, this guideline is focused on some of the more obvious topics that can be triggering:

-suicide
-cutting
-many abuse topics (e.g., those that are graphic in description)
-flashing graphics

I hope that clarifies things.

John

Thanks....
 

for that clarification, DocJohn!

Dear Doc John.......

My Heart is smiling....thank you very much....for giving me this place.....

In the chronic pain forum....you have made a sticky that is posted by Wittsea , I think.....it is a post of abbreviation terms......I am lucky to post basic typing...don't know how to get it to this thread....but it is already a good one.............

Blessings to us all......
Hummer

Excellent, thanks for pointing that out to me... I'll include that as a link in the guidelines....

The other thing I forgot to mention is that the trigger icon isn't yet online. I will get that online shortly.

Not all flashing graphics are java. Most are animated GIFs, some might be Flash, etc.

If someone posts a topic, "Happy go lucky dance!! (flashing)" that would be enough to alert the members here if they are sensitive to flashing graphics not to view the thread.

Some of this is just being a little more aware of other people's needs. It doesn't always come naturally, but I think if we all make more of an effort, it helps everyone.

John

I've updated the guidelines with:

- Clarification on admin issues
- Clarification on copyright issues
- Clarification on signature links
- Clarification on what to expect if you violate a guideline
- Clarification on abbreviations

Could the abbreviations list be moved somewhere more central? (I can think of a number of abbreviations that could be added, but aren't necessarily applicable to Chronic Pain).

Thank you! It seems like you're trying to bend over backwards to be fair and to clarify any issues we might have a question about.

Also, please know that Doc John and I have access to all forums as well and please don't ever hesitate to come to me if needed, or just if ya want to.

KD

There is only one thilng that troubles me and that is when a moderator takes out words from a post and leaves the rest there. Then they have taken away the meaning and content of anothers thoughts and words.

They have not necessarily inserted their own words but have inserted their personal thoughts and mind into the contents. Try as you might there is no way for this not to be.

In a way they have upsurped the right to free speech just by the elimination of what they personally deem to be inappropriate.

We are all adults and as such know all of the words that are in current usage today.

Everyone saus ignoring does not work but it can if lyou want it to.

You have to ignore or lose your right to express yourself as you see fit.

Don't get me wrong I don't condone a lot of things said but I ignore them and look around to see what can be done on the one to one level either to change that persons mind on the usage of language or get a recognition of where and when to use it.

If all fails then yell for Doc

So please don't fall into the trap that fefell BT1.

I don't think anyone has benefitted from it going down. Whatever the cause.

most, but not all, images on vbulletin have alt tags. the alt tags come from the vbulletin software. the admin here can change them, but every little update wipes them out and they have to be done over.

the problem is not mostly alt tags. most of the problem is in the sizing of the images. if the image is sized when it is loaded then what i see is a little box the size that was written, regardless of the length of the alt tag. then i can mouse over the square and read the alt tag, if there is one, and the page loads correctly. for example, currently the icons below this message box have all been sized, and i can see what they would be by holding my mouse pointer over them. this is new, on OBT several of these icons were not sized.

if the trigger icon is sized, then the only way i will know it is there is to mouse over every single square representing an icon to me. if i am required to post a trigger icon on a post then the only way i will find it to check it is to run my mouse over every single square representing an icon until i find the trigger icon. if the trigger icon has alt tags.

if an icon is not sized and it has an alt tag, then i have a worse problem. the page does not load correctly because the alt tag on the unsized icon will spread as far as it needs to. this distorts the page badly and sometimes makes it impossible for me to read it. at best i have to do a great deal of scrolling.

this is a problem for many disabled computer users, especially the blind who use screen braillers or screen readers, or the learning disabled who use screen readers.

the icon sizing/alt tag problem has a very simple solution. size your icons and put in alt tags.

requiring me to use a trigger icon does not have a simple solution. i find the whole idea quite peculiar, since one of its reasons is supposed be to label threads which will be a trigger for my photosensitivity. but i can't see the trigger icons because of my photosensitivity. somehow i do not the idea of a trigger icon was followed to its logical conclusion.

Thanks for your thoughts and all that information, annie. I must admit that most went over my computer-challenged head. :o

But hopefully others can consider it and possibly come up with a workable solution. And then talk to me like I was a 3 year old when they explain to me what to do. :D