Alpha Lipoic vs. R-Lipoic
 

I've been searching the site for info on r-lipoic.

Can anyone provide substantive info regarding the relative benefits of switching from alpha lipoic to r-lipoic.

I seem to recall that mrsD said she was going to switch to r-lipoic. MrsD, are you there?

Thanks.

For What It's Worth
 

http://www.intensivenutrition.com/rlipoic.htm




What is the "R" form?


The "R" form is the biologically active component of Alpha Lipoic Acid which means that it is the only form that one's body can absorb and synthesize thus making R-Lipoic supplementation inherently more efficient and effective. Studies have shown that R Lipoic alone may be considerably more effective than racemic Alpha Lipoic Acid.

Why use the "R" form?

R Lipoic Acid exhibits unique and superior antioxidant activity. For example, R Lipoic is able to increase or maintain levels of other important antioxidants such as glutathione peroxidase, Vitamin E, Vitamin C and Coenzyme Q10. R Lipoic may also increase cellular and mitochondrial antioxidant activity and significantly reduce what is believed to be an underlying cause of aging---inflammation.

What are other benefits of R-Lipoic Acid?

*R lipoic enhances glucose uptake
*R lipoic inhibits glycosylation (where sugar abnormally attaches to protein)
* R Lipoic is helpful for skin health and skin vitality

I have just returned from my vacation...

I use the r-lipoic 100mg a day. (for over a year now)

I never had much results from the old alpha type.

mrsD, what "results" have you had with r-lipoic at 100 mg a day?

Thanks.

much less burning. And overall I see to be metabolically more stable with my blood sugars... When I started the r-lipoic I saw a nice increase in energy during the day. Now that has tapered off or I just got used to the new level of functioning. ;)

That sounds good. Can you recommend (or PM me) a brand?

I've been taking 600 mg of Jarrow's Alpha Lipoic Acid with Biotin. When I recently ran out, I thought I was experiencing a relapse of my foot cramps, and an increase in burning and fatigue. As soon as I went back on it, I felt a bit better.

Obviously, the fluctuations in my symptoms could be due to something else, but it occurred to me that it might be the alpha lipoic acid.

I use Doctor's Best. I started with Country Life because it was a tablet. At first 100mg a day was too much...so I used 50mg a day for that first bottle, breaking them in half. As I got used to the jived feelings which seemed to taper, I just replaced with Doctor's Best Caps 100mg, as they seemed more economical. I use Doctor's Best quite a bit for other things and find it quite good. But other brands are good too...
NOW, Country Life, Jarrow are also quality and affordable. But not one type has everything, you know, so I think we all end up with various brands.

I have found significant relief with "Jarrow Formulas, Alpha Lipoic Sustain 300, with Biotin, 300 mg", two per day, maybe that is the product you mean. I am going to try r-lipoic, probably ordering today.
Electron

I just ordered the r-lipoic. We'll see how it goes.

Yes, please keep us up to date as to your results.

The first things noticeable are increased energy. I expect the PN benefits will be much slower to become obvious. So don't expect PN improvements immediately.

I Took 600 mg of alpha lipoic at Bed time and have nausea today. Could be that. Is tht too much?

Thanku
Tulips

Take it with food.

All of the studies use 600mg or more a day.

The new r-lipoic is better, and you use less.

1/2 of the alpha lipoic is not active, since the product is a mixture of two types. So the r-lipoic can be used at about 100mg a day or so, because it is so much more potent.

Some people do complain of stomach upset. So take it with food.

For approximately a month now, I've been taking 600 mg a day of r-lipoic with food. I have not experienced any stomach upset. Nor have I experienced any increase in energy (which was raised by, I think, mrsD, as a possible benefit of r-lipoic).

There are people who have reported--
 

--acidy stomachs taking large doses of alpha-lipoic--it is, after all, an acid.

I second the idea of taking it with food, or trying the R-lipoic version, which, since it is composd only of bodily-active isomers of the molecule, can be effective at saller doses. I've found at 100mg/day of R-lipoic I don't have any acid stomach, which I did have sometimes on 600mg alpha lipoic.

Thorne R Lipoic
 

I am curious if anyone has tried Thorne Industries r-Lipoic? I am using a product called Thorne Thiocid, but was thinking to switch.

I use Doctor's Best Brand.

I've read that r-lipoic should be twice as potent as ALA. I'm calculating that on iherb.com, Doctor's Best R-Lipoic Acid is about 3.4 times as expensive as Jarrow Alpha-Lipoic Sustain, when calculated on a $ per gram basis. So the ALA seems to be a better value to me. If the r-lipoic were less than 2 times as expensive then it might be the way to go, but it's not even close. I have been using the Jarrow for years and find it effective in reducing my pain.
Electron

We really can't make those assumptions. The purified form may be more readily absorbed. Things like that.

But you stick with what works for you. That is the bottom line.

Here is some reading:
http://www.nutritionreview.org/libra...ipoic.acid.php
From what I gather there, it is more than 1:1 actions.
Removing the inactive form, increases activity of the remaining form.

I never had any results from the old ALA... but I do like the r-lipoic. That is just my opinion.

Most of the material I've read on this--
 

--give about a 1:5 to 1:8 conversion factor for alpha lipoic vs. r-lipoic (though I'm not sure just how some of these studies make this determination other than trying different amounts and surveying users as to their subjective sense of symptom reduction).

A 1:6 ratio is often cited--100mg of R-lipoic is roughly equivalent in effect to 600mg of alpha-lipoic. (That would help with the expense issues if relatively accurate across people). I myself went from 600mg/day alpha to 100mg/day R-lipoic without appreciable symptom difference.

One can also get an indication by the way the capsules are made.
100mg is the highest dose for r-lipoic.

Lipoic acid works slowly anyway, so noticing what is happening takes time, and many people give up if the timing is long.

The studies were for at least 60 days.

I just started Country Life 100 mg capsules (best deal we found when we ordered, but that probably changes daily) this morning.

Actually, I should say, this morning "B". I have to laugh - now my pill regimens are split into "A" groups (on an empty stomach) followed by the "B" groups an hour later (with food). (Heavy sigh....)

I see also that a 60 day trial is recommended to determine efficacy (efficaciousness?). Coincidentally(?), this brand came in a 60 day supply (when I've noticed most supplements seem to come in 30 day supplies).

Keeping my fingers crossed (can't feel my toes to cross them!)

Doc

I read here that it could take up to 60 days to notice any effect from taking R-lipoic. Is it possible - even conceivable - that I could be noticing a difference in just a couple of days, or am I just having an unusually good day?

Doc

It is possible... especially if you are getting some glucose reduction, and that translates into your feet.

Many people come here posting that sugar, ice cream, heavy intake of high glycemic carbs, makes them worse.

I am going to do some testing on myself soon, since I have to take my sugars often before starting Glumetza, for my insulin resistance that is bleeding over into beginning diabetes. (I've controlled this for many years with diet, and seem to be losing that battle finally).

But I will test with lipoic actions too. I went off 2 weeks ago, and will test for 2 days, and then start taking it again before I start the Glumetza. My last fasting was 10 pts lower, using lipoic, but I don't know if that is the reason or something else that day did it. My testing strips just came today, finally after a long delay with the USPS.

I don't think there could be much. I've been tested for diabetes numerous times, including glucose tolerance - all negative, and two PN specializing neuros told me I'm not even "pre-diabetic" (cuz I specifically asked). Also, I'm on Dr. Tennant's diet, which is mostly protein, and the rest vegetables. I'm not eating sweets, fruits, or other sugars (except what's converted from the veggies on the diet, which excludes high-sugar veggies anyway).

Today is day 7 without burning.

Doc

That's great that your burning is lessening!

I had normal readings for years, while insulin resistant.
2 GTTs also normal.

The only abnormality was fasting INSULIN levels. In fact my fasting glucoses would be 70-80, while the INSULIN levels would be elevated.

Then BOOM... even with conservative diet (Zone similar), they suddenly went up. I don't have a corresponding foot issue though this time. My feet have been rather quiet. (except for that ankle which responds to Aleve).

It can all get very confusing sometimes and complicated.
I didn't do the lipoic test yet... I was concentrating on the many readings I took over the last few days.

I just bought 3 bottles of Source Naturals, 60 tabs, 100mg -
for $15.96 a bottle at iHerb. That's 26 cents a day, per dose.
the Acetyl L Carnitine 500mg was 14 cents a cap & CoQ10,
100 mg - is 19 cents ea.
Not highly expensive, but not as cheap as my Jarrow methyl B12/1,000mcg- at 7 cents a sub-lingual lozenge. .

Here is a new thread on r-lipoic.

http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/thread159210.html

It goes into "stability" issues, and the two types of r-lipoic out there.

regular R-lipoic and RALA...which is a sodium salt of R-lipoic and supposedly better absorbed.

This can be very confusing... and you will see on that thread that I suspect Dr. Blaylock is confused as well. :rolleyes:

I started using ALA 100mg about four weeks ago. I notice that a couple of hours after taking it my urine smells but worse is that i get a bad taste in my mouth that leaves me paranoid all day about bad breath. Does the R-Lipoic do the same thing. I wanted to order Doctors best RLipoic but seeing as that is stronger than the normal ALA i am concerned that it'll be even worse. Anyone had any experience of this?

I've never taken regular ALA, but since I started RLA a year ago, I've never experienced anything like that. I have gotten a little heartburn on occasion, but mild and temporary.

Keep in mind that you'll only be taking approx. 1/6 the amount. It's not so much that it's "stronger"; it just doesn't have the part you can't use. If you're getting the stabilized form, I would think it would be even less of a problem; perhaps the reason you had the problem was that yours went bad or partially decomposed(?) (That's just a WAG).

Doc

100mg of regular alpha lipoic is so low a dose, it cannot
really work on PN. That would be 50mg to absorb under ideal conditions (empty stomach) --not likely. Therapeutic doses of ALA for PN are 600-1800mg a day!

I've never had any odors from Lipoic. But some vitamins in the Bcomplex will cause urine to smell differently.

B1, B2, and B6 will color the urine and B1 esp has a yeasty odor.
Benfotiamine (special B1) does not seem to share that characteristic.

There are many drugs that will cause dry mouth, and/or metallic taste, also.

I take my R-Lipoic with my Acetyl L-Carnitine and I have noticed a urine smell with doses of higher than 100 mg on the r-lipoic and higher than 500 mg ALC. I'm experimenting to see which one is causing it.

Smells a little like after I have eaten asparagus.

MrsD, what is the most efficacious daily dose of th r-lipoic?
 

I take 100 mg and wonder if it's too low. Any suggestions?

I take 100mg of the stabilized form too. I think it works.
Some of the charts I found on the web showing absorption, show the R-lipoic stabilized is far more absorbed than the old ALA.
http://www.geronova.com/node/61/doct...?theme=retzone
The Doctor's Best form has this trademark on the ingredients panel, in tiny print.

As the months pass...it seems to work slowly for me... I FEEL better, more alert, etc. I haven't had burning in my feet for a while now either.
My hands and feet are not as cold as they were last winter.
My A1C came down, but my fasting morning sugars are still a bit up. I may try adding another 100mg later in the day.
Taking 200mg all at once didn't agree with me and...made me irritable.
But perhaps dividing it up will work?

I was using another R-lipoic product, from SourceNaturals, and I guess it wasn't working as well (does not say stabilized on the label). We learn something everyday here! (including me).

I also use 150mg of Benfotiamine daily... and this combo may be also part of the reasons for my responses.

I take my R-lipoic on an empty stomach first thing in the morning.

Over the past decade these are the nutrients that have been improved upon, to deliver better response for people:

R-lipoic (improved Alpha lipoic acid)

Methylcobalamin (improved activated B12 (cyano synthetic) ))

P5P ( activated pyridoxine B6)

Benfotiamine ( improved longer acting thiamine B1)

Bioenhanced curcumin (improved over 95% extract)

Ubiquinol (improved CoQ-10)

Zinc monomethionine ( zinc sulfate which is very upsetting to GI)

acetyl carnitine (better absorbed than L-carnitine)

magnesium chelates (much improved over magnesium oxide)

I am running into a blank, at this point... too early in the morning I guess? ;)

Hi mrsD,

Something bothers me about that chart, as well as getting study data from the company that mfrs./sells the product. I see that they're citing studies done by others, but IME, purveyors of products do tend to cite only studies that support their claims, even when there are other studies that contradict. (I'm not saying that's the case here - I don't know.)

The bar chart
http://www.geronova.com/content/bio-...uble-rla-salts
(is that the one you're referring to?) seems to indicate that Alpha Lipoic Acid is better absorbed than R-Lipoic Acid :Scratch-Head:, when other sources have been telling us that RLA is better absorbed, and we're only needing 1/6 the dose as of ALA.

I guess I'd just feel better about it if there were corroborating independent studies. All those "improved" nutrients - I'm beginning to wonder if at least some of them aren't just so much smoke & mirrors...

Doc

The way I see that bar graph is that RLA is 40 times more absorbable than ALA... If anything I think that is a stretch and I really don't think it is that much. Maybe 10 times or thereabouts?

Why the unstabilized is so low, is a mystery too. But lacking time to look elsewhere, I put that up as an example.

Also within the manufacturers is LEF which cleverly makes their product look like it has MORE NaRALA in it by listing the total weight of the salt in its ingredients! Doctor's best does not inflate their product this way, and labels it more accurately.
example: Doctor's Best says 143mg sodium RALA yielding 100mg/cap. LEF does the reverse!

If you compare prices of both products there is not much saving using LEF (if you think you are getting 300mg/cap and that is 3 times what is in others--- which is not true. You only get 2.4 times more).

Labels and ingredients are really tricky! One always has to watch carefully.

Hubby is waiting for me now to go out with him. I'll look around later today, and get back to this thread if I find better data.
I don't really "love" that graph that much either.

To clarify, the bar chart shows stabilized RLA to be 40x more absorbable than ALA, but also shows ALA to be 4x - 5x more absorbable than "unstabilized" RLA.

I spoze it's possible that they transposed the unstabilized RLA and ALA labels, but that would be really (nigh unforgivably) sloppy... :disapproval:

Doc

This is the reason for that graph:

Now when I did my testing at home here on the SourceNaturals R-lipoic, which I posted on the Blaylock thread, it did become gummy and not soluble in the water. Perhaps the Alpha racemic mix separates the two isomers physically enough so that the R portion cannot hook up with itself into the gummy polymer? Heat seems to also encourage this polymerization too, since I did it with hot water. Since our bodies are warm inside, unstabilized may just not be absorbed?

Urinary excretion of ALA (regular type)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14551180

A 1998 paper:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9876998
This article may be helpful for understanding Lipoic acid in general...some nice graphics too.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19664690

I take ALA Max Cr by Xymogen, AMAZING. Also Benfotiamine by Life Extention. The brands my doctors like. I haven't been here in a long time. They have almost healed my feet completely. Brands and amounts are imporatnt. I am very thankful.

Interesting, ALA is a body building supplement in lower doses

http://www.bodybuilding4u.com/bodybu...ipoic-acid.htm

Yes, the bodybuilding community uses ALA and carnitine quite a bit.

I've started slowly increasing my RALA to 2 a day (200mg).
Splitting the dose up to 100mg in the morning and 100mg at 4pm before dinner, is working out so far.

I've added tryptophan again at night 500mg...and that is helping me sleep. I also made a "magnet pad" with 4 one inch neodyms in it to lie on in bed, to help my back pain. It seems to be working well. The hand sewing was tough on my hand, so it is wrist brace time for a couple of weeks at night for my carpal tunnel. I am experimenting with the pad style, and have some new mags coming from Amazon. My mix of PN and arthritis is quite painful in winter, esp when there are storms and Lows like these past few days.:rolleyes: