just wondering.......
 

I have seen a lot of people comment across the BT2 forum that one of their main concerns about the BT1 crash is the possibility that so much information is lost and gone forever. Thousands of posts with invaluable information....

And then of course there are all the very old posts and info from the neuro-mancer server that disappeared a long time ago and probably will never be seen on the internet again.

My question is this - is there any legal precedent where a website or non-profit orginization has been sued and forced by the courts to release the lost information?

I ask because it was heartbreaking to me when the neuro-mancer server posts were no longer available because so much happened in my life during the time I posted on that server, and my posts there were like a journal and it never occured to me to back them up since we were assured that the info would always be available even after BT changed servers and software.

I assume that many other members feel the same way that I do about the loss of information and posts from the old neuro-mancer server --- and now with BT being down for so long this time it's terrifying to think that old posts and info could again be lost.

So back to my question -- could John be forced via the courts to (at the very least) release a disk of the old neuro-mancer server posts? or at the most make the old info/posts available again on the internet?

I'm not personally interested in suing for the information, so please don't think I'm asking this question in the hopes of getting a lawyer and suing BT and John. That is not the case at all. I'm just curious about the legal responsibility to release/provide the old info/posts, especially since a promise was made when the new server was set up that the old stuff would always be available.


Any thoughts?

There are quite a few of them here


http://web.archive.org/web/200210191...assCookie=true

and here...but not sure how they could be put back in a forum. no way to even look up a post that i can see. but hundreds and hundreds of them.

http://www.sellaffiliate.com/mulmul/1412016.php

lol...the dreaded webbots that always made it look like there were soooo many users.

so is granola liberal like liberally choccy coated granola? :p

and did YOU shave yet or are you braiding? :eek: ;)

I wouldn't be suprised if it was a gone... but I remember that post that he once wrote about having the whole world in his hands - he was walking home from work with a disk in his hand that was the back-up of the entire BT system and all it's posts and he then wrote this post about how it felt so sureal to him to be holding something so small (a DVD disk) that is so important to so many people (every BT post ever written).

So, it was that post he wrote so long ago that still gives me a glimmer of hope that there is a disk somewhere with all the posts that are long gone and out of reach to us.

With so many posts about the beginning of my illness, and the posts about dealing/coping with my husbands cancer, I would pay good money to be able to get a copy of any back-up disks he has with the old posts on them.... and I bet I'm not the only BT member who feels that way about the loss of info and would be willing to pay to get it back.

I remember him saying that too! But I don't remember hearing any word whatsoever when the archived system was gone. Do you? I don't even remember a response when people asked about the Artistic Expression material and whether it was going to be published or not? Was there a resolution given for that too? I remember seeing the questions, but no answers about those precious poems, etc. people made.

I might have missed it though.

There is a way to possibly recover several posts (from brain.hastypastry.net) on your own, Wittesea. It will be "cached" or archived copies.

Go to: google.com

Type this is the search bar: site:brain.hastypastry.net username

Where I've written username, type your BT username.

When the results display, click on the Cached links next to where it states: Supplemental Result.

(I've tried using the WayBack Machine for the most current BT forums, and, so far, that approach hasn't been productive. The WayBack Machine has, however, resulted in also being able to read posts from the neuro-mancer BT forums. It is time-consuming, yet I missed a lot since I came to BT years after it started.)

From my understanding the hard drive that held the post from neuro mancer was broken/damaged beyond recovery (reasonable expense recovery I'll ammend).

When Mr. Lester made the post about having all of BrainTalk on disc, it was some time after we moved to the new forums. Therefore I can only assume the backup was for the data on the "new" forums.

Now back to my ammendment, there are ways to extract data from damaged hard drives. It is very very expensive and has zero guarantees of successful data recovery.

So let's assume somebody does sue for the data and the hard drive is turned over to that person. They most likely won't have either the funding, or know how to get the data from the hard drive.

Short story, I don't believe the data can be recovered from the neuro mancer database.

Oh and I'd also like to know what's up with the Artistic Expression compilation.

Oh boy did I kick a hornets nest by starting this post, and for that I apologize, I am just thankful that the hornets nest erupted via email so it was not disruptive on the forum.

To the folks who are very upset because they think I am contemplating a lawsuit - I HAVE NO INTENTION OF EVER SUING BRAINTALK OR JOHN.

I am just a curious sort of person who wonders about things, so ever since the neuro-mancer server disappeaed and the posts were lost I have been wondering if anyone else could or would sue, but of course I felt uncomfortable posting the question on braintalk because I was afraid people would misinterprate it and think I was going to sue.

I thought now that since time has passed and since so many people are being open and honest on this BT2 forum that I could finally ask the question without backlash. I guess I wasn't clear enough about my intentions - that it was just a question asked out of curiousity.

Secondly to the folks who contacted me asking if they could join me in my lawsuit. THERE IS NOT GOING TO BE A LAWSUIT! and I am now very sorry that I put the idea in anyone elses head.

This is certainly not the first time in my life where I asked a question out of curiousity and landed myself (and possibly others) in hot water, and it probably won't be the last time either because I am such a curious person who wonders about so many things...

oh for Gods sakes....

If you type it down in the net, it belongs to the free world. Why would anyone waste time considering a lawsuit?

Wittsea....I do hope you got yourself a good laugh out of that one~!

Well anyone who had read your original post properly would have seen that you had no intention whatsover of sueing..
Curiousity ... it is a good thing..stay the way you are Wittesea

Actually, the thing I found most amusing was how many people managed to find my email address... (I certainly don't mind that people found it to email me, I just found it interestingly amusing that people would go through so much hassle just to find me).

Yes, my email addy is posted on the internet in various old BT1 posts that can be found via google cache, but when you do a google search for wittesea email, most of the pages you get are to the 'email wittesea' link on the BT1 forums (which doesn't tell them my email addy it just allows people to click the link, but since BT1 is broken you can't click the link through google cache pages).

Anyway, it took me almost 10 minutes of messing aroud with google cached pages to finally find an old BT post with my email addy in the post itself, and then I messed around some more and did manage to get my yahoo profile as part of my search results.

So I do applaud people for going through that hassle to find me. :) Although the funny part is that my email addy is about as simple as can be - I use yahoo and my email user name is exactly the same as my user name here.

Yeah, and in my second post I even said I would pay good money to John (and/or Braintalk Inc.) in order to get a copy of the old posts of mine that discussed my illness and my husbands cancer, etc...

I may personally dislike the direction that BT has taken lately, but I still recognize BT as a great place for so many people and I would never want to do anything to harm that.

THAT was a great loss! Like you, mine became a journal of sorts that I could review with optimism, seeing the positive changes my health had made since my initial accident and resulting RSD. We had alot of good computer tech posts too, with detailed instructions of fixes that were lost. With the new forum I got to the point where it was too exhausting to retype all that information, so I seldom did.

As far as suing, like KTM5665 said, once you hit send, it is no longer your property as it becomes the property of the one who owns the server. Just like an employer that has full access to your emails. It belongs to them.

hmmm
 

it continues to amaze me that anyone would have the expectation of storage space, through time, from a board that was clearly made available [for free] and operated to the best of its ability/resources...no guarantees.

perhaps this is a reminder to all of us that if our histories are that important [to us] that we find a service that guarantees against data loss, and promises to be there in the future, for all time. Good luck with that.:rolleyes:

perhaps this is a reminder that our own histories, journals, etc. are our own responsibility, and to protect against "final" data loss, make copies of treatises published on the internet, and store them to our own computers [assuming one has that ability].

it is good to be gadfly, better yet, better to be someone who takes action, and assumes responsibility for their own data...

BT owes no one anything that isn't "promised" in their terms of service. If someone is expecting data that will never be lost or corrupted, 100% uptime, etc., then perhaps it is time to find a service that makes that guarantee and pay for that pleasure...

with all due respect.

Hey, everybody!! http://chocolate-moose.p5.org.uk/MINIS/wave.gif

I thought that John said when we moved to the new Hasty-Pastry forum that the problem with the neuro-mancer and the even older stuff was that it just wasn't in a format that was convertible to vBulletin software.

Am I having a real memory or was I dreaming :confused: :rolleyes:

Have a good day

I don't know if that was said or not since I have no memory of it. But I don't think Mr. Lester would say that....almost any database can be converted to work with vB. It is possible though that at the time of the post (if it did take place) that there wasn't a converter available. Guess we'll have to wait for the forums to come back up and do some searching.

Actually, I've found most posts here not just "blasting" BT, but people providing their thoughts and experiences with their frustrations related to this downtime, which went without any sort of progress for over a month!

Could you imagine a senior center or non-profit community center in your neighborhood that you relied on daily for support and care closing its doors with a sign that simply said, "Sorry, lost electricity, will be back when you see a new sign posted"?

One person, awhile ago now, asked about legal precedents. By far, the majority of posts I've read here (and I've read nearly all of them) have expressed nothing but gratitude, appreciation, and hope for BT's future. I suggest you keep reading to see the outpouring of continued support JL and BT continue to receive. Support, with the hope that they will take into consideration the great deal of feedback offered here for improvements to the BT when it resumes.

John

Wittesea was merely asking a question and clearly stated she was NOT planning on sueing anyone. She is one of John Lester's biggest cheerleaders and a terrific poster of support and information on BT.

Please read carefully before making accusations as you are way off base on this one.

Any word from JL as to when he will be back running?

Sorry, but when you're responsible and the technical caretaker for a community of 50,000+ members -- real, live human beings -- you treat them with the same respect as any community, whether you're being paid or not. Being "out of town" or "having a life" (what, community members don't have a life?) is not an excuse for anything, and I think we all recognize that.

There's some things here that just don't seem right to people, and what you've seen is people reacting to that (a month to get around to actually fixing the problem? a month before you update a status message when the message said it would be updated regularly? nearly 2 weeks to get a set of disks that could easily be purchased and mailed overnight, or by purchasing from one of the 6 Apple stores in the greater Boston area?). It has nothing to do with the appreciation everybody has also expressed to JL for running BT for all of these years. But it wasn't like JL *is* BT. BT has a board, right, and is its own non-profit? I would think one of the purposes of incorporating and having others involved is precisely to prevent these kinds of things happening.

Sorry, if you take on the responsibility all yourself, you have to be *responsible.* That's why I hope the new BT shows its members the respect they deserve when it comes back, and gives technical oversight of the operation to more people than just JL. As I've said many times, from what I know of JL, he's a great guy. But it seems obvious that this operation has grown much larger than one person, no matter how great and caring he is.

John

Excellent summary of the situation! :)

double post, my apology

This seems rather an ungracious post to unknown and about John Lester, DocJohn.

Saying "sorry" in the manner that you have is disrepectful and unusual for a professional, IMO. Unknown's posts were merely an opinion. An opinion that I thought well expressed and thoughtful. I see no need to be a smart-alec about it or to demonstrate such an emotional attachment about it.

As to John Lester, I don't know him personally though you say you do. Wouldn't the prudent and courteous thing to do be to pick up the telephone and give him a call? It's not even a long distance call for you. Why would you support *hints* of something not quite right in your post? Do you know something that everyone else does not or are you simply encouraging discontent with the original and only BrainTalk.

John Lester is irresponsible? Your remarks seem irresponsible to me.

Mr. Lester never said, to my knowledge that he has a life and the rest of us do not. Please enlighten me by providing a link to that remark.

John Lester has shown immense and unending care for the people on the real Braintalk. He has devoted thousands of hours (years) of his life to provide a support forum. It would be nice to see John Lester receive the respect that he deserves also.

And yes, Doc John, before you suggest that I read most of the posts in the forum, I have. In particular, the Forum Feedback section.

And before someone accuses me of being Mod#4, I am not. I'm not a moderator at all but I have been a member of Braintalk for years. I've never had a problem with Mod#4. In fact, I've never had a problem with any of the moderators. I've never been banned and I post on a regular basis. I'm not a member of any group. I'm just myself. And I appreciate BrainTalk. It was my first forum after diagnosis. What I've learned there is beyond a price.

I hope you will rename this forum and that it will survive. There is an obvious need for it's existence. But it's not Braintalk.

ghost

What 's up?
 

ghost...ditto.

DocJohn ,

So it would be nice if you talked with us a bit. We are all looking at it for perhaps different reasons, and when you cut the connection, the system crashes and becomes unstable- communication at BT is a very frequently traveled highway.

I have been wondering what really was the truth and have my suspicions. I can't accuse and am not accusing - but its a community of human beings, the best ones - we know more than - no on second thought you know that exactly.

So what's up Doc? And I didn't plan to say that I swear it just dropped out .

Paula

Ghost I meant ditto for your been here, wonder whattup post. p

I don't know... I thought John was being supportive of our feelings and revealing to us that he's not a blind supporter of the bizarre BT1 explanation on hastypastry.

I appreciate people that always let you know where they stand. Thanks again John for providing a place where old friends can congregate.

Curious.......
 

I understand why the BT trashers and banned used different usernames. What I don't understand is why those of you that obviously love and support JL/BT have chosen to use other names than your BT name? No accusations, I'm just curious. Maybe I should have used another name but I couldn't find a reason to do so (I'm a bit dense at times:confused: )

collaboration
 

ditto shotspine: just asking and suspicions come from not being told. I wouldn't know whether anyone should be accused of anything -we all need to question exactly what is going on now.. who is running the forum and why? Answers shouldn't be hard.

Curious about the comings and goings of a few people, but we could talk about that later.

Paula

Hi Ghost, my post was to unknown, not to JL, so if I implied I know or was answering something JL said, I apologize. That was not my intent. (I only know JL professionally and see him on IM everyday; but like most others here, my emails have gone unreturned.)

I have nothing but respect and admiration for the work JL has done. I see nothing wrong, however, with questioning the events that led up to this outage, what happened after it, and how service to the community was restored. I hope by doing so helps it prevent it from happening again in the future, not to show disrespect to JL or his work. I'm speaking out of the frustration I share with others here, not out of disrespect for him or his work, and I apologize.

John

Not much here... What would you like to know? :)

Paula
 

I guess we'll see. I've writen much more and deleted, written and deleted. I can't think of much to say without being in trouble with someone.

Why should one worry about posting with the same name as one has at other forums?
 

Precisely what kind of retribution is feared?

I use my same username on this forum as I do on Braintalk, the Neuropathy Association, etc. I am also sure than on all these boards most people know exactly what my real name is, where I live, etc. I believe it's best to "hide" in plain sight, as it provides a degree of protection against unfounded accusations--anyone can Google me and find my posting history on many boards, which helps people make their own judgments (and, as the possessor of an unusual last name--Ribotsky, for those who don't know--I'm not likely to be confused with anyone else).

I am quite grateful to DocJohn for providing this alternative forum for us during the time Braintalk has been down. But remember, this forum would have been unnecessary had Braintalk not been offline for so long. It does not detract from John Lester's accomplishments with Braintalk, or from the value so many of us find in the community, to criticize and question WHY there have been so many long outages over the board's recent history, and why the communications about said outages have been terse and not completely transparent.

It is from that climate that so many of the angry and critical posts made here about the administration of Braintalk have come--and such posts only provide more evidence as to how valuable Braintalk is for so many. And it is to be expected in such a climate that other criticisms of Braintalk would surface.

People are peeved that their lifeline and info source has disappeared, and that it has done so for so long and without detailed explanation.

I am sensitive to the idea that this outage occurred at the worst possible time--when JL was travelling--and to the idea that he is allowed a non-Braintalk life. Nevertheless, Braintalk is still his baby--until the day he relinquishes guardianship to others--and no baby should be left without adequate caretakers. JL does merit THAT criticism. And it matters not that this is a volunteer, versus a paid, endeavor--it's still his baby. (I know I do not give my volunteer responsibilities--I am chair of the New York Road Race OmbudsAssociation, a volunteeer scorer at numerous road races, and a member of several committees in my co-op--short shrift just because they are unpaid, and I am sure most of us who do volunteer work can say the same.)

As I've said before, John Lester lives in such a rarified world of virtual communitites and such that he may not be fully aware of the reach and breadth of Braintalk, which is far greater than that of most such communities--it is a destination to get primary medical and resource information, not just contact and support, which distinguishes it from most other boards that he may now be heavily involved with. He may also not be completely aware of the depth of feelings about aspects of the board's administration at this point (as has been reported, many suspect he is not involved in a lot of the day-to-day). One can only hope at some point he reads some of these threads in depth, as one can see that most posts are not the ravings of malcontents, but serious considerations of the "state of Braintalk".

So many outages in recent history?

Ummmm what...2 in 4 years? Trust me...that's not "so many". The first outage was due to hardware overload and was resolved in a reasonable amount of time.

The second one...still a bit cloudy (read my posts and you'll see where I posted what I thought was the reason(s) ).

As for his lack of replies/updates/responses...only Mr. Lester can explain.

question for DOcJ
 

DocJohn,
Would it be rude to ask who sponsors your site and/or this one? i'm not dissatisfied with the forum and don't mean to sound accusing. and thank you for posting.

Paula

Not a problem; both are fair questions.

Psych Central sponsors this site as a public service.

Psych Central is principally funded by advertising revenues (as our most commercial websites these days).

John

amazed
 

I am amazed at the level of suspicion that resides on this board. When I got an email from a friend that this site was up and running (at the very beginning), it was easy for me to ascertain who Doc John was and what his motivation was simply by reading the posts under general subjects and following the links provided. And I guess it is just experience from using other non-medical-related forums that I recognized this bulletin board format and color scheme - it is ubiquitous on the internet, not solely associated with BT1 or 2 by any means.

I am not a newbie - have been indigogo since I joined in 2002 on the old MGH board. I have almost exclusively posted in the Parkinson's forum.

But maybe I am naive and too trusting? It seemed that Doc John was clear from the first - and I believed him. Still do. He has been quite responsive, and just about as transparent as one can be on the internet.

I just don't get it.

Unknown and Indigogo
 

I just want to say that I appreciate your responses. Thanks:) Anyone else care to answer?

Doc j
 

I will admit to a bit of paranoia for a day, and I do appreciate your patience. I felt jerked around by a few posters, and spent too much time on Huffington Post while the forums were down. lol

Paula

when to trust?
 

Paula -

A little bit of paranoia is probably a good thing - keeps you on your toes!

I guess I am more sad than amazed that we can't just accept this (for now) temporary home as a gift from someone who saw a need and filled it. My interpretation has always been that, given Doc John's background as a psychologist, he understood the importance of BrainTalk as psychological sustenance for many - and that its disappearance without explanation for a long period of time was not good. I believe there are people who do things without expectation of reward - except for that of the good deed itself.

The long time without a word from John Lester has me baffled - the justifications aren't plausible; the hardware/software issues should have been fixed more quickly, and JL's long silence seems out of character. It just doesn't make sense, but speculation also doesn't make sense. An interesting game, but not very productive.

Maybe someday we'll know the whole story; maybe BT1 will come back. In the meantime, thank you Doc John!

Cheers,

Welcome to the Brain Aneurysm Foundation's message board. This board is part of a partnership with "BrainTalk Communities" sponsored in part by the Massachusetts General Hospital's Department of Neurology.

This is a direct copy from Braintalks list of forums. Why some forums and not all?

The above is not true and hasn't been for a long time.

Something is weird here. You 'doc' offered to help John and when he did not reply you went ahead and took from his forum hils words and created this one.

He did not want your help nor did he ask for it. Yet you did it anyway. Why?

I think you copied his forums but when did you do it and how did you do it after the site went down.

You had to have done it before....................something is not right here.