Judy,

Excellent post and great O.T. scripture verses. I agree that the Abundant Life is also an O.T. concept. Examine most major O.T. Bible characters and see how they went through brokenness, often a desert experience. Moses had to leave Egypt after he thought he was such a hot shot that he could lead the Israelites by his own strength when he killed the Egyptian. Jacob wrestled with God. Examine David's life especially during the period when he was hiding in caves. Compre David's life to that of Saul who never learned to depend on God. Yes, the O.T. characters learned total dependence too. I've wanted to design an O.T. Bible study which would present N.T. abundant life truths. Maybe someday but too busy now.

David

I just stopped in to check out this forum after visiting the Parkinson's site, and found your conversation; I hope I may join in?

I believe very strongly that God gives us - or allows us to have - trials and afflicions so that we may learn to depend on Him. Long ago I gave up depending on myself and my intellect and energy; I found that those things accounted for very little when I was faced with real trials.

I'll save myself some typing, and just paste in [slightly edited] what I wrote out when I was asked to present my testimony in church a few months back (the sermon topic for the day was "Despair"; the pastor thought this would be a good fit!):

All my adult life, I have suffered from cyclical clinical depression and anxiety disorders. Twenty years ago, I just couldn’t believe there was a God. I tried hard; I wanted the same happiness and calm that I could see among those who did believe. I went along with my wife to a Bible study group , figuring I could treat it all as an intellectual exercise, and at the same time still struggling to believe. One day, it simply came to me that I didn’t have to have all my doubts and questions answered right away; I could believe now, and wait until later to have my questions answered. The relief I felt right away was wonderful! But it didn’t last; my problems did not disappear forever.

About 13 years ago, I went into a spiral, ending up in a very deep breakdown. As I felt worse and worse, I began to drastically increase my Bible reading and prayer life, trying to get some relief. Even though my wife and I knew all of the signs, I didn’t recognize that my fears were imaginary, instead keeping them from her as much as possible.

Eventually, my defense systems gave out, and one noontime I broke down - with a cry of "God help me!" For those who have not suffered from such a collapse, this kind of depression is not about feeling a little sad like you see in the TV ads. About the only way I can describe it is as my own personal glimpse of Hell. There is no hope, no life ahead, no life today. It is a pain as intense as any physical pain. All I could feel was terror and fear. Over the next few years, I found it almost impossible to pray, or to open my Bible. It hurt too much to be reminded of the time of my collapse. *It was not that I had lost my faith in God; it was that I felt distant from Him, as if He had chosen for whatever reason to ignore my pleas and as a punishment for God (me?? Punish God??!

It was a few weeks before I could begin to feel the medications taking hold, and a long, 12-year road out of that breakdown. The first few years, I was feeling out of touch with God. I couldn't see it at the time, but God was helping and using me throughout this time, without ceasing.

• He gave me a loving and supporting wife, who saw immediately what was wrong, and called the doctor. Just knowing that help was available kept me going the next few days.

• He gave me a doctor who knew how to get me the fastest help, and He put me in a time when medications were available, medications that were not available to my father and his father.

• A few years later, when I was exhausted by the depression and on my way back down again, I was preparing to end my life. I checked my life insurance; I figured that my wife would be better off without me, my daughter was nearly grown up, my son was a tough and stable kid. But God made me encounter my doctor by accident, who took one look and said, “Be in my office at 5:00 o'clock.”

• He gave me the wisdom to see when several other people needed to hear my story, and to offer it so that they could also see that there was help available for them.

It is a lot like that little wall plaque, "Footsteps in the Sand." He has carried me through the rough spots, even earlier in my life when I was denying His existence.

• And then, just a few months before my present affliction showed up, He helped me up to a level of strength such that I was able to face a diagnosis of Parkinson's with relative calm, and able to face that all my plans for the future were likely to change.

So, are things going great for me now? Well, no, they aren’t . I still worry about my future - what will Parkinson’s be like in 5 years? Ten years? Can I ever be reliably happy for more than a day at a time?

But after all of this, I have learned that I can and do trust in Him that He will provide whatever is truly needed, and I can forget about the rest.

I believe God will take care of us, even if we don't know who or why. I know the "who" now, and I'm working on the "why".

Thank you Judy for your apt scriptural references, and you David for your insightful analyses.

Kris,

Welcome. What a wonderful post. I am so sorry you have been through so much, but that is the entire reason for this thread is to show that when we can't do it anymore and we realize that, and start depending on God, he will step in and take over.

Self-sufficiency is one thing, I believe, that keeps us from truly experiencing God's help and the abundant life that he promises.

Sorry, I have been slow getting back here. I am reading this in the middle of the night. Thank you for sharing, and please stay with us. We all have a lot to learn and can help each other.

In Christ,
Judy

The Bible talks about Christ in us, but it talks 10 times more about us being "In Christ". When we trust in Christ's sacrifice on the Cross God looks at us as actually having died with him, burried and resurrected to a new life.

The Devil is actively trying to trip us up, but he also is the accuser!

1 Therefore, there is now no condemation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me from from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man.
4 In order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit

First of all, we are not condemned like the devil makes us think we are when we sin. Because as long as we are still alive we are not ever going to be completely free of sin. Walking in the Spirit involves looking to that sacrifice of Christ on the Cross. He does not recognize faith in our own ability to "not sin" The object of our faith has to be Christ and him crucified. Then the Holy Spirit will work in our life as we continue to trust in Christ's sacrifice!

In Christ,
Judy

P.S. Does anyone have any comments about what it means to Walk in the Spirit vs Wallking in the Flesh? Feel free to participate in this thread - anyone!!!!!

hi judy can i say what i think it means to me? walking in spirit means u r following gods laws and commands. walking in the flesh means u r follwing your own laws. correct me if i am wrong

Good Cybil! Only problem is we can't be perfect and keep God's laws. (law is the tricky word!)

Try it this way: Walking in the Spirit means u r surrending to God's will.

Walking in the flesh means u r following your own laws.!

Anyone else have another idea?

Thanks,
Judy

Cybil and Judy,

I"ll join for a bit.

Walking by the Spirit is total dependence on Jesus living His life through us moment by moment. Judy, your definition will work too. As far as laws, as we depend on Him, we will follow God's laws since Ezekiel 36:26-27 says that laws are now written on our heart and God will cuase us to walk in them; and besides Jesus living through us will of course follow the laws when we depend on Him. Our focus as a Christian is to focus on Jesus, not laws.

Walking by the Flesh is dependence on our resources. Our flesh is our body and soul operating independent of the Holy Spirit. Thus walking by the flesh is depending on our bodyand soul, rather than Jesus. As far as law, we can be focused on man's law or God's law but still be barking up the wrong tree. Even if we are focused on God's law but depending on our resources to fulfill that law, we are walking by the flesh. Gal. 3:3 says "Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?" Oh foolish me, I try that sometime. Don't you? I personally think the USA should be renamed Galatia.

Let me try to remember a story from Classic Christianity by Bob George. There is this guy listening and dancing to the music. He is really enjoying himself. Then another guy joins him but he cannot hear the music at all since he is deaf, but he watches the other guy jumping and dancing and decides to join in anyway Of course, he doesn't hear the music. He is not authentic. Yet, if you walk in and see these two guys you will think they are both greatly enjoying the music. This is like the Christian life. We can obey God's laws in our own strength and look like we are dancing (this would be living according to the flesh) and our Christian friends may be impressed; however, wouldn't it be better if we were dancing and living the Christian life because Jesus was living through us? I don't know about you but I want to experience more authentic consistent dancing in my Christian walk. David