I don't think order matters so much as the cyclical pattern. I have seen variations; some versions don't include insomnia, and some versions include other additional factors.

There are many other vicious cycles as well (Google vicious cycle and click on images). The idea/term can be applied anytime two or more factors feed on/exacerbate each other. There's a well-known book about the Specific Carbohydrate Diet (SCD) for Inflammatory Bowel Diseases (IBDs) entitled, Breaking the Vicious Cycle.

Non sequitur paragraph deleted.

Doc

:smirk:"Stress is stress is stress" - - -Gotcha.

"there is bad stress and there is good stress. E.G. sex = good stress! :o"
Oh Puleeezzz, don't eeeven go there! :)

Oh forgot to say that CT will be ready for p/u on Monday, and will also be sent to the (unaffordable) neuro. Hopefully he will be able to make some sort of recommendation or at least give me his opinion via phone (as he said he POSSIBLY could) when he receives it.
Today have to make a 2 hour round trip and I've been dawdling. Must.Endure. Driving, the road vibration, arrgh!

I have had surgery twice on L4/L5. The first one was 10 years ago and it was laser surgery and I was ok in 3 weeks. This last one was open back surgery and has taken me an entire year to recover. I thought that every ortho uses laser and open back was a thing of the past. I was wrong because I assumed. I think the key to alot of people avoiding surgery is to strenghthen their core and back muscles. It takes 6-8 weeks. But it depends on what the specialist thinks as well. I would only use a neurosurgeon or an ortho spine specialist for surgery. Not every ortho is for spines. Surgery should alsways be last option for many reasons.

Hi seahorse
 

What # was your post about your MRI? ginnie

*UPDATE**Newbie here - L4-L5 problems
 

I finally found a gifted NS who agreed to do surgery on this uninsured patient. I wrote her a letter (thank u Miss Ginnie for that wonderful idea!)explaining the situation, how I'd been bumped around from dr. to dr. for months and in mid March she worked on me. She performed a multi-level L4 & L5 laminotomy, bilateral foraminotomy, & removed several spurs, but she did not remove the herniated disk for medical reasons. At the point when she performed the surgery, I was diagnosed with foot drop on a Thurs., the hospital agreed to cover the surgery on Friday, pre-op was on Monday, & the surgery on Tuesday. Oh glory!...it was good to get rid of the unrelenting pain/pains!! 3 days in the hospital, 4 1/2 very neat straight incision. Fast forward to today...I am still weaning off the methadone since I had taken it so long...down from 30m/d to 10m/d...still have to take dilaudid some days for the back and the pain in the backs of my knees but that medication is going to be adjusted to something else soon, but I don't have a clue what since I can't take Nsaids. I walk up to 3 miles a day sometimes, usually 2.5. There are still some bad days BUT not every day is a bad day anymore!! No more fear in flexing at the waist, no more sharp pains, I have complete control of my right foot although by the wear on my walking shoes I need an alignment. After the 3rd NS post-op visit she referred me back to the wonderful dr. at the pain clinic that I had seen for months prior to surgery, and the reason for this is because the NS wanted the PC to advise & help me with the weaning process of the drugs I was taking. The PC dr. wants me to come back at the end of the methadone - which will be in 2 weeks - to try "some shots" & some physical therapy. Said I will be coming to see him for 6 months - which is AOK /me. None of this is a surprise to me, as the NS promised in the beginning to get rid of the leg pain, not the back pain, advised that recovery would be 6 months from a professional's stance, but that if I talked to people who had actually had my surgery the re-coop period was realistically a year. All this to me is small potatoes...my condition is SOOOO much better than it was prior to surgery!!

I really just want this update to be an encouragement to anyone suffering from awful, unrelenting back & nerve pain and understandably scared to death of surgery. Surgery for me was the answer to my prayers and the solution to devastating pain, so there ARE successful back surgeries & stories out there!

Any questions I will happily address! Peace to All.

Seahorse,
 

That's wonderful news, and welcome back!
We've missed you & thought about you often.

Doc