You didn't offend me in any way. I don't see anything wrong with what I said. I am obviously against suicide for ANY reason.

And believe me I know what I'm talking about because 8 years go I was on the phone speaking with a rep on a suicide hotline trying to get someone, ANYBODY to my son's apartment (in another state) because he kept saying he wanted to kill himself. He was 20. He was depressed. (or so I thought)

I finally convinced someone on the other end to send a crisis team to his apartment only to find him perfectly fine, laughing and over whatever mood he was in.

I know what's it like to hear your son say "I am going to kill myself", then to be up at 3 a.m. trying to convince someone at the other end of the phone to take me seriously. One suicide hotline volunteer actually had the audacity to tell me "we don't who you are, you could be a hitman or something".

My son did this 5 night in a row. I remember moving furniture around because I thought I would have family members over the next day to mourn my son.

Five nights in a row, I did the suicide hotline thing because I had to take him seriously, didn't I??? Five nights they found him fine. They flagged him in their system as a malingerer.

He thought it was funny. I do not, have not, and never will find this funny at all.

It practically destroyed me and my husband. My son cried suicide in 26 cities, getting off buses, calling 911 and saying he would kill himself, just so a crisis team would pick him up and give him a place to stay. He always got picked up. He told me "hey, whatever works"

Went through this for a long time.

I no longer go through this. I will not.

I just came on this forum to give support, to engage in serious discussion and really, if I offended anyone with my analogy, it was not my intent.

I think you know this.

Melody

Hello, Melody: "Soylent Green" -- I saw it 30 years ago or so, and never, never, never forgot the scene you refer to: the beautiful movie of landscapes and seascapes and classical music. You don't know what the Robinson character is going to do -- just go to a movie? If I remember correctly, he is the only one in the place; all the other seats are empty -- which makes his isolation all the more, well, isolated. Someday that option will exist for people: you mentioned "other countries." In Switzerland there are several groups working on it (Dignitas and Exit), but they are in the preliminary stages. Dignitas is very controversial for letting foreigners in, as well as people who are not suffering from incurable diseases.

Anyway, Robinson makes a POWERFUL portrayal, the kind that exists only in art (not rational exposes like mine), the kind I hope Dave and others will work up into the ultimate drama of what a suicidal person thinks and feels -- "To be or not to be: that is the question." Yes, it is THE question, especially for those who deny it. I, too, by the way, had rough treatment in a hospital and by people around me after my attempt: the best line to give such people may be: "Who are you talking to? Me or you?"

Hello, David: Thanks for yours. Your new avatar looks raring to go. Where, will that's the question. They're saying now that climate change killed off the mamouths. If so, then, it was one degree at a time over thousands of years.

I don't think anybody here advocates suicide. Please note in the neurotalk instructions that illegal acts are not to be encouraged -- and suicide is illegal. Indeed, I rigorously oppose it for that young person just out of college, who is in good health but unemployed and can't find a job, whose parents divorce, etc. (Exactly my circumstances, by the way). Yes, if that person willingly kills himself, he commits suicide. Again, though, not everybody who kills himself or herself commits suicide, such as the people who jumped to their deaths from the burning Twin Towers. What are we to say to or about such people? Don't do it? Don't jump?

I also agree with you that ANY self-imposed death is a tragedy. I worked in a large county hospital as a college student, and saw some amazing cases. It was there that I started thinking that someone who physically suffers and has no chance (as far as anybody knows) of getting better, who "takes his own life," who "lets go," has not committed some sort of sin or should be legally punished. I will never forget going to the men's room, washing my hands, looking down and seeing ... a pool of blood flow from someone in a locked stall. A patient was cutting his wrists with a razor blade. I remember thinking, My God -- THERE MUST BE SOME WAY TO STOP THIS SORT OF THING!!!! A human being, reduced to that... i still have that same thought today, over 40 years later.

LOL! Well I never saw that before Tom but I won't "bore" you with how so many people here sent me frogs...thinking that I collected them...I didn't but guess I do now because I can't throw them out...*grin

That really is darling...http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=I45u...eature=related

*whisper...old wallpaper backing off..tomorrow will begin the new!

So Tom, et al-

Once physically wrecked, career in ruins, money running out our doors, pain overwhelming with no end in sight, I actually did ponder whether I could end things in January 2007. January 2007. Oh, God, how I hurt so much. Pain, a neverending sorrow pit, where self pity seemed to drive me to consider whether family, friends, and others would welcome an end to my version of grief. The Hell in which I knew existence.

I had purchased a shotgun some many years ago. Never fired. The wreck prevented my return to the range, where among my skills expert marksmanship was a reality. I pondered.... wondered.... do you suppose? Would my finger reach if I, well, you know, did the mouth thing? I was alone. Everyone else for whom I cared was away, blessedly for them, because my agony was so severe. I managed to make it to the gun safe [one must keep such elements of harm safe, you know?]. Pulled out this item. Placed all body parts in order, JUST to see, could I reach.... after all, the barrel was and is part of a stock long action. Oh, and I am remiss... in failing to mention this weapon was and is an automatic.

Assuming the position, not looking over my shoulder for God, because I did not want His input at that moment, and this was only a test after all, I placed mouth to oiled barrel, finger to the guard and reached to see would it touch. It did. Click.

I, despite being so expert, and distraught at my plight, had failed the safety check to determine was the weapon truly unloaded [none loaded are kept in home even in a safe]. Click. That was the loudest and yet among softest sounds my ears had ever registered. Click. Just once. Had a shell been in chamber, that would have been "all she wrote." Click. Frightened out of my wits, I returned the now proven empty weapon to the safe and locked all away and out of sight.

Then I cried. I had not really wanted to end things. Sure, I had contemplated, but not PLANNED. Click. So glad God was watching over my shoulder that night.... that lonely night. Then I prayed.

Writing and reaching out to others became the thrust and emphasis of my being from that moment forward. I was put here for purpose, and not my own destruction, but to help others in seeing Hope swells out of the deep and out of the dark.

Click.

Thus, I plan for the talk I will deliver on Wednesday, day after tomorrow. Among the thoughts I will share are two poems which I believe God to have laid on my heart inspirationally. They follow, for you and for whomever else may be in any nearness to contemplation of an end of life scenario. A little thought never hurt anyone did it?!

Perspective
MRidder 20090712

Truly I have wondered
and prayed….
God would leave me ill..….
For in this, through this,
He may teach me to depend on Him,
depend on Him alone.

Now this piece comes two and a half years after my lonely appointment with an empty automatic shotgun. I actually found I was contemplating, Lord, how about you do not make me whole again so I might find the strength through you to be fully dependent and through this to help others. Next a piece I wrote only weeks ago and it dwells on hope...... that means to reach to another with spark in the eye and share that there is a mission perhaps not yet accomplished by them on this plane.

Out of Darkness, Hope
M Ridder
20100801

In the deep of my heart
a place filled with pain
a place, oh, so lonely,
may I reach out again?
To languish alone there
the light very dim
it seemed all steps forward
were aching and grim.
So easy the choice
could have been to remain
awash in self pity
alone still again.
Yet God in His great love
remained by my side.
He captured the sense
of this innermost plight.
The touch of His hand
burning clear to my soul;
redemption, salvation
shone light in this hole.
His fingers He wrapped
firmly ‘round pain filled heart
and cradled me near Him,
His sacrifice hard,
yet given His love,
price He paid there for me,
through darkness He reached
and with Hope set me free.

Thus, Tom, you see I have been deep in the throes of darkness where life seemed all but a flame awaiting extinguishment, no really just an ember at the end of the wick, for hope was missing, and the flame already mere memory, a wisp of smoke gone the way of fire no more. God was there in my hopelessness of darkness and brought me so far back from the edge of the precipice so far into the light that I could not fail to live that hope for tomorrow, the hope through which I have been set free.

Sorry you cannot make it to Golden, Colorado on Wednesday at 1:00 Tom, for I would gladly share myself in whatever way might be meaningful to help you catch a glimpse of hope.

Wanna shake your hand anyway, my friend; in this plane and not waiting until the next.
Mark56

P.S. while I might be willing to explore discourse with you whether Christ on the cross was a surrender to something very much for the saving grace of others as opposed to mere end of life scenario, I am unwilling to do that in cyber land. Should you desire to pursue it, we gotta meet face to face. No exceptions.

Dear Mark

you really do write beautifully. i wonder if you have ever considered writing a book - it would be a good one. anyway, thank you for sharing yourself and your gift here.

Dear Tom

sending hugs

~ waves ~

Dear Tom

thank you for this. i have seen the cartoon before (recognized it as soon as it opened up) but had not realized it was Alffe's frog!!! anyway, watching that again made me smile. thank you for that.

regarding the suicide v.s. taking your own life dilemma, and the one is right and one is wrong, forgive me if i sound harsh, but it sounds to me no different than any of the other rationalizations one makes when suicidal. semantics are ready tools to twist logic into a shape that suits our purpose. in these cases, the whole 'purpose' is primarily that of dying sooner rather than later.

when i was planning i had figured out a way by which i was not going to hell... mind you, this isn't about religious credences or spiritual consequences, this is just about logical processes and rationalizations.

my logic, as to how i was not going to hell, worked similarly to your theory that choosing to take your life is not always suicide, and specifically, that it would not be suicide in your case. i would suggest to you that the only reason you "need" this theory, is that you "need" to make a distinction. because you don't believe suicide is ok, and yet you feel the lure to it. if you can find a way to construe suicide as not-suicide, then, you've made it ok. but have you really? because you wouldn't be going through these mental gymnastics at all, if you REALLY felt what you were doing were ok.

purpose, something everyone else on this thread has talked about. and indeed the point. is your purpose to die, now? that's it? what purpose is there in that, other than to end suffering? surely a different purpose can be found - a living purpose.

i can tell you, i have not found a purpose for myself yet. i am not in the dire circumstances you are, but i have at other times gone through extensive planning... to expire. i now just keep going, waiting for things to change. i see too that, even if they do not change, my life touches that of others in small ways. and i realize, that sometimes, those small ways might be big or might turn out much bigger than i'll ever know.

my purpose is to live and to try, even in small ways, consistent with my situation and abilities, to make the world better than it would be without me. better for others and for myself as well. it's more about the process, than the result. but i've seen that others who try often have good results, even if they are not the results they set out for.

i want to suggest to you that this is everyone's purpose... yours too.

you have a beautiful mind Tom, i can see that quite clearly. i don't believe its purpose is to die just yet.

~ waves ~

correct, this discussion doesn't belong in Alffe's thread... but i wanted to reply just briefly to what you said, and doing so in the same thread as your post seemed logical... but yes, not appropriate to continue conversation there. (so, i've placed this response in your thread, i hope that is ok.)

and yes, i did mis-state your take on anger... its part in the equation. good that you acknowledge anger, my point was more about how you interpreted Alffe's post, and that your anger, perhaps incompletely acknowledged influenced your interpretation.

basically, i felt it was not Alffe to be sensing projected or (more the case of experiencing someone else's emotions) introjected anger at all. i felt, in your confusing Alffe's post, that you could be projecting your own anger onto Michael's act... onto Alffe's account of the events.

and of course this is a psychological digression, as was yours. you did wonder if it was revealing, and my notions on your own anger came to my mind as soon as i read that, before even reading your interpretation on Alffe. i am sorry if you found my post offensive. it was not intended to be. it is just an observation... a possibility. perhaps food for thought?

i am truly sorry if i overstepped bounds.

~ waves ~

Hello, Mark: we may have more in common that either of us ever expected. I, too, was an expert marksman (in the NRA). I haven't owned a gun since I was 16. After I had my share of 50s (no "cheater" needed), my eyes changed; had to wear glasses; well, so much for my blue ribbon phase. I can't go hunting; even after all these years, poor beast ain't got a prayer, so where's the "sport" in that? I don't need food that badly.

Even back then, I gazed down the barrel, wondering what was down there... What would happen if... You say you had contemplated but hadn't planned. Maybe in my case, my desire was in one place, my INTEREST in another.

Love the way your poem ends, with hope from God setting you free. In Pandora's box, the only thing that was left was hope; everything else flew out once the box was opened. So, hope from God is literally making the best of a bad situation. Jew-Jitsu, at its very best.

You live in a beautiful part of the world (my brother lived in Ft. Collins, I've been to Colorado many times). Don't move, Marc. None of ya, Golden folks: don't move.

Let us know how your talk went. Even though, I think, we already know...

Tom

Hello, Mark: Waves has picked up on your writing ability. Now, if we can just get you and David together...

Don't fight it out: write it out!

Tom