NeuroTalk Support Groups - Terror + Resignation = ?

NeuroTalk Support Groups (https://www.neurotalk.org/)

- Survivors of Suicide (https://www.neurotalk.org/survivors-of-suicide/)

- - Terror + Resignation = ? (https://www.neurotalk.org/survivors-of-suicide/131609-terror-resignation.html)

David!!!!:hug::hug::hug:

Melody

Rrae:

You wrote a beautiful post and I thank you. I thank you on behalf of my friend who lost her son on the roof of the World Trade Center. He was only 25 and was on the job for only one week as a painter on the roof. He was doing some work that horrible day. Every year since, on 9/11, she goes there and remembers (along with the relatives and friends of the others who were lost to us that day.

Anyway, great post and thanks again.

Melody

Hard to look at taking of life as less than murder

You see, I happen also to be related through the marriage of one of my family to one affected by a most horrific and gruesome murder to have happened on the soils of that land of Kansas wrought upon a young lady who, being 19, had some of the worst acts one human might ply upon another at the hands of a monster. Now, hers was not an act of the taking of her own life; rather, she perished because someone else decided she was not worth the living. All who live have life worth living. None is the better for it because they take upon themself the decision to bring end by their hand. I would not have been had I ever succeeded before. Certainly, my end would have been in deprivation of those words of encouragement I now share with others.

To me, I feel premature eradication of human life is not possibly divine intervention whether by self or another. Those who perished on 9/11 had lives cut short at the hands of monsters who came from a land far from here who sought to make a point, legitimate to themselves, but a point purportedly driven by some errant mockery concern for the rights of others. I cannot and will not embrace a thought that any one of those who jumped from a high wall that day, failed to wrest control of an aircraft from monsters for fear of a knife and its effect on their body were, after a fashion submitting to suicide. Murder was worked on their bodies for the sake of the philosophy of another. Philosophy. Taking of life not yet wound down to its natural conclusion.

Too hard to reach such a conclusion. I am with Rae on her thoughts. DMack, I appreciate your thoughts as well, surely I do. Your father taught well, so well, and we are the better for it.

I wish my cousin's sister-in-law had been allowed the opportunity to reach life's end in a manner other than they discovered after recovering her in that sad sad state.

Maybe your lot in life is to reach out and touch the life of another in beneficence than to know an end which is by choice of time, place, manner and method. Maybe your lot through this thread is to reach into the hearts of others and help them to see a way to benefit those round about them.

How well I remember Jodi's murder. Same month as I thought touching the trigger of a shotgun was a good idea....... interesting, don't you think?

Mark56:hug:

Dear Rae and Mark,

thank you both so much for your articulate comments, in particular with regards to the 9/11 tragedy, whose anniversary we observe just day after tomorrow.

those who died that day are precisely victims of mass murder, no less than if they had been lined up and shot by a firing squad.

suggesting otherwise is akin to saying that someone who instinctively ducks to dodge bullets would actually be choosing his own death by altering where the bullet will hit him. :rolleyes:

i join you in sending my deepest sympathies to all those who lost someone dear in the attack.

~ waves ~

Quote:

Originally Posted by DMACK (Post 692979)

Tom

Strapping semtex to your body and sitting on a tube train killing others is deemed an honourable act in some parts of the world.......does it make it right. They still call it suicide..[bomber].......

Euthanasia definition:
The practice of killing a human being or animal for humane reasons, especially one suffering greatly or experiencing poor quality of life; An easy death, or the means to bring about such a death
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/euthanasia

Suicide has consistently been the most common cause of premature death in schizophrenia. A large 5-year World Health Organization study consisting of the follow-up of 1056 patients exhibiting psychotic symptoms found the most common cause of death in those with schizophrenia was suicide (Sartorius et al, 1986). In their review of the subject Caldwell and Gottesman (1990) found that 9-13% of patients with schizophrenia eventually commit suicide. At least 20-40% make suicide attempts (Meltzer & Fatemi, 1995) and 1-2% go on to complete in their attempt within the next 12 months (Meltzer & Okayli 1995). Therefore, suicide in schizophrenia has long been a major area of concern and research efforts.
In Denmark, Mortensen and Juel (1993) used the national case register to retrospectively examine mortality in a sample of 9156 patients following their first admission with schizophrenia, and reported 50% of males and 35% of females went on to commit suicide during the 17-year study period, with the relative risk of suicide increasing by 56% over this time. This suggests that the current level of risk is not stable, and is certainly not improving. The devastation that suicide brings for relatives, as well as the immense personal suffering the victim endures, must surely make this one of the most pressing issues for psychiatry to address. Carers and professionals are often left with feelings of profound ineffectualness and guilt in the face of suicide, and so it is vital for clinicians to feel confident in their understanding of risk assessment and management in this particularly vulnerable group.
Results from the recent UK National Confidential Inquiry into Suicide and Homicide by People with Mental Illness (Appleby et al, 1999a) revealed that 20% of suicide victims during the period 1996-1998 had a diagnosis of schizophrenia. Fifty per cent of all cases had had contact with psychiatric services within the previous 7 days, yet 85% were thought to be low risk. It is therefore obvious that despite our best efforts, recognition of those most at risk remains extremely difficult. What is unclear is what risk factors specific to this diagnostic group have been reliably reported in well-controlled studies, how best to incorporate these into current assessment procedures, and whether when applied to empirical clinical practice, such procedures can reduce suicide rates. This paper reviews the research findings to data, and discusses possible areas for future investigation.
Vanessa Raymont, Clinical Researcher and Honorary Specialist Registrar

I wonder if the above group have choices................I know some ....if not all have voices ..........

These voices often instruct the individual that their life is meaningless, and that death is the answer ...........often tinged with religious salvation that awaits [so my Brothers, Brother in Law states in his deep manic phases]

Paul whom I supported about 6 years ago.....was articulate and very knowledgeable ..... yet this crippling disease ended his life prematurely at the age of 31.................

.his mother said that..........’death to Paul by hanging was the only cure for the persistent voices calling him to his grave’.

In his rational states of mind Suicide was his backup plan..........for what he called his ‘dark days’
SUICIDE is taking one’s life by any method.......is it still suicide........[said it on his death certificate]

Tom I do not condemn Euthanasia...........AT ALL
I believe in free Will...........

My beef is when people pigeon hole the act of suicide......any death .......
leaves grief in its wake

Schizophrenia is a fire in the mind of the sufferer, therefore is it suicide or what.........if a person is not in control of their mind, how can the death certificate read suicide...implying intentional,

Definition of Suicide
http://www.medterms.com/script/main/...ticlekey=24337

Suicide: The act of causing one’s own death. Suicide may be positive or negative and it may be direct or indirect. Suicide is a positive act when one takes one’s own life.
Suicide is a negative act when one does not do what is necessary to escape death such as leaving a burning building.
Suicide is direct when one has the intention of causing one’s own death, whether as an end to be attained, or as a means to another end, as when a man kills himself to escape condemnation, disgrace, ruin, etc.
Suicide is indirect (and not usually called suicide) when one does not desire it as an end or a means, but when one nevertheless commits an act which courts death, as in tending someone with SARS knowing that they may well succumb to the same illness.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Tom I do not see those poor souls who leapt to their deaths as committing the act of suicide.....they fled from terror. FULL STOP

Equally I do see the ‘20-something depressed guy’, as committing suicide but because he also fled from his vision of inner terror......

I also see the terminaly ill who choose to terminate their life ..........but only justify this act if you accept ............you want to end inner suffering...........like others who committ the word suicide.............

its just words at the end of the day..........and interpretation of these words.....

and you to Tom have a choice.......... life or death............

David

Hello, David: another excellent post on your part.

You start with "honor." Waves mentioned hari kari, and how it is honor-related in Japan. In the West we use the word honor less frequently than another word, which one finds all other the place in discussions about suicide: dignity. People want to die with dignity.

I certainly agree with the contributors to this string that suicide, "taking your own life," whatever you want to call it, involves killing yourself. That fact rests; I don't see any way around it. The little old lady with cancer and with Nebutal ... she killed herself.

Now, can somebody kill themselves with honor/dignity in our society? That is the question. Honor, in my mind, is more socially-oriented -- something others accord to a person. So, if a society views certain forms of suicide as honorable, so be it. You raise an extremely important point: in the Middle East blowing oneself up can be an honorable act; that same act is also viewed as suicide (incidentally, I'd love to see a poll of Middle Eastern people on this subject. I don't know how many of them think it is honorable -- do you?). Dignity, on the other hand, for me is more of an individual question -- subjective, internal, if you like, to a person. In our society, does "dignity" play the same role as "honor" plays in others? What is the relationship between dignity and honor? That expression I saw on my elderly aunt's face hours before she died of a heart attack ... if that didn't express dignity, what does? In fact, I think I saw the face of dignity itself...

You mention "inner terror" which presumably could assume the proportions of a 9/11 fire in the mind of a mentally ill person. If that person kills himself, then, is he not comparable to the 9/11 victims who leaped to their death, but did NOT commit suicide? Of course, in the latter case there was a murderer involved, the group of 19 terrorists. In the former, the mentally ill person, well ... is it possible to have a murder without a murderer? I don't think so: again, "murder" is a legal condition; there is nothing illegal about cancer. So, I'd call cancer something else ... I'm just not sure what right now.

You wrote, "commit the word suicide." As noted on another post (Alfee?) which I can't find right now!!!, there are numerous expressions for the act of killing oneself. Perhaps the word "commit" is throwing us off: it smacks of crime, of "committing a crime." A negative connotation... Should "commit" be dropped?

Finally, you note there is a choice between life or death. The problem becomes, for certain people, that life more and more resembles death -- death in life. Is this what at least some people do: they love life so much that rather then see it slip away inch by incle, they kill themselves? Is that is what is behind the call for "death with dignity"?

Tom you said

"is it possible to have a murder without a murderer? I don't think so:

yes............

[2752.people]..........died in 9/11 attack

....their 19 murderers......died before the 2752.........had met their death....

A question for you Tom..........

What about the 343 brave firemen..did they enter a burning building knowing that the death was hanging in the balance...........they are the complete reverse of the 200 who fled terror...........these individuals out of a sense of duty walked into the terror.

Cancer is a disease...........at present in most cases uncurable.......like many other conditions .............but are treated with various forms of treatment to minimise suffering and pain..and prolong life.......that is dignity...........in a sense..........[do an apinion poll on those dying of cancer and ask would you like 1 year 10 years more.???? the majority may choose longer..IMO

David

Tom:

Talking about HONOR. We all know about Suicide Bombers. Right now, there are camps in the middle east where suicide bombers are taught as little children that it's acceptable to do a horrible thing in order to kill the infidels and then they will go to heaven. They are brainwashed from birth it seems to do an HONORABLE THING. I remember seeing a video up online of a mother of a FEMALE suicide bomber and she was smiling and she said "I'm proud of my daughter".

I guess it depends on the culture where one is raised. If one is raised to believe that if one does this, well, it's completely righteous and IT'S THEIR BELIEF SYSTEM. We are supposed to respect this belief system?. I think these people are ALL mentally ill. But can SO MANY PEOPLE who share this belief system, well can they ALL BE MENTALLY ILL?? Oh my god, it's so scary.

And don't get me started on honor killing. That is the most heinous thing I have ever heard of. That people (and this includes moms dads, brothers and sisters), who, when they discover their daughter has been seen kissing (or even talking to) a man who she is not married to, well, they think it's perfect fine for her to be stoned to death. And the mother will lead her right to it.

Our world continues to go mad with all these belief systems in place. To ever think it's okay to murder someone or blow your self up in the name of a fanatical belief system, well I will never understand this way of thinking.

And what can we, as residents of a different country, what can we do to prevent these things?

I don't think we can do anything.

Mel

Dear Tom

i am relieved to see a post from you today. i was worried you felt hurt by our remarks.

i just want to point out that Islam condemns suicide EXPLICITLY.
http://www.inter-islam.org/Prohibiti...istian%20parts

Quote:

As shown, neither the Judaic nor Christian parts of the Bible are there direct injunctions against suicide. However, this is not the case in the traditions of the true religion, Islam, which continues to be a major influence upon many Islamic people.
There are a few quite specific sanctions expressed in the Quraan against self-killing. The Prophet Muhammad (SAW) also assigns suicide to the lower levels of Hell.
Allah says explicitly in the Quraan,
"And do not kill yourselves. Surely, Allah is Most Merciful to you". (Surah An-Nisa Verse 29)
In another verse of the Quraan, Allah says:
"And do not throw yourselves in destruction". (Surah Al-Baqarah Verse 195)

Dying for holy war, is considered a religious sacrifice, not suicide, but it must be done with precise modality. the purpose there, is not escape from life, nor pain, nor self-destruction. the Qu'ran promises a sort of "express pathway" to Heaven for those who make this religious sacrifice.

http://www.letusreason.org/islam12.htm

While we may not make moral judgements or discriminate based on religion or politics, we do need, in all these forums which are US-based, to observe US-based legal considerations. And the acts of killing unfaithfuls (and in so doing accepting one's own death) committed (yes, COMMITTED) in the name of Jihad, in the US, are viewed as TERRORISM, and it is 200% illegal. Beyond that, please bear in mind that very very vulnerable people - including teenagers - might read these forums and not respond. We must post responsibly.

Furthermore, the purpose of this particular forum is to promote survival, and to reduce the stigma of suicide victims... to reduce the stigma of talking about suicide also, to make suicide something that can be approached and grown from.... with the objective of REDUCING the number of suicides... bringing people out of the darkness BEFORE they kill themselves.

I do see it as dangerous to other readers, for us to post general endorsements about taking of ones life under given conditions, regardless of the word used. (Here, we use the word 'suicide' for that.)

And yes, i too just recently read that post by Alffe, about how "commiting" suicide has negative connotations... this makes it difficult for survivors to share their grief. I am going to make a conscious effort to use alternative vocabulary for those who are hurt by the use of the word "commit."

Tom i hope you will stick around, and share more about yourself, and allow us maybe to let some light in.... :hug:

This theoretical debate is interesting, but i worry about others, vulnerable others, who might be reading.

~ waves ~

D-Day Came And Went

Quote:

Originally Posted by SB Surfer (Post 693201)

I can totally relate to where you're at. For 12 years I have been plagued with chronic back pain and it just keeps getting worse. Unable to obtain a clear diagnostic picture and hence treatment, I am fighting off suicidal thoughts all of the time. I will be 50 in December. I feel like giving up. I have a great wife and 20 year old twins. They are the only thing keeping me from going through with it. At least I now found this forum where I can talk to others who are capable of genuine empathy. So, you are in good company here I think...

Hello, Surfer: 12 years of chronic pain? Without a clear dx and treatment? No wonder you struggle against suicidal thoughts "all of the time." But you have your family to sustain you. They are the key; don't lose it or minimize it. This forum, as well.

I don't mind saying that a few months ago, I arbitrarily set today, Sept. 9, as D-Day. I could not see myself going past today; well, here I am, but just barely. We went to the market this a.m. for 2 hours; I felt like I would faint, very weak, the sun was too much, tired, tired, tired. However, I didn't fall on my face or get in a wreck coming home. I'm approaching a major threshold, I sense.

Would I have gone through with my plan had I not contacted Neurotalk? I'll never know for sure. However, I do know that it certainly would have been more likely.

Surfer, Waves... we'll have to get you two together.

Tom

Quote:

Originally Posted by DMACK (Post 693215)

Dear Tom

Your recent and progressive struggle with a debilitating and incurable condition
is heartfelt, saddening, distressing, and soul destroying to you....and also to those who heard your message via cyberspace....

You are a special person Tom...in so that you have made me reveal more about myself in 5 days or so than anyone else....and i have been floating around here four about 3 years

I have tried...to convey my belief that suicide is an act of desperation....a means, to end of pain and physical and/or emotional torment.... at times it it is a cry for help, at times a 'F***' you to the world....at times a 'I told you i was ill',
at times its enduring everlasting pain. Suicide knows no boundaries.....it manifests itself....when all the ingredients are in the pot......what ever the ingredients might be......

it shows no regard for age, gender, colour, religion, sexuality, intelligence, social economic status. The lure of suicide needs only circumstances to arise that tip an individual over the edge....where death is preferable to life.............

TRUTH TIME..........[SUCKING UP AIR HERE]

My Father was born in 1922....he died in 1996 aged 74.

He was born in Londonderry Northern Ireland......he forged his aged in 1939...so as to join the British Army [although a Catholic] to escape poverty..He was the eldest of 14 children.

He joined the Medical Corps. [17] In 1940 he was assigned to the Dunkirk evacuation....as his first combat mission

He landed on 6 June 1944 he landed at Sword beach....and was now classed a Mortuarer [dealing with the deceased]

His subsequent journey took him through Cannes [France Major battle] Nijmegen bridge [Holland..the not so famous bridge, but fierce battle] and Bergan-Belsen Concentration Camp.........[Germany]

The latter expedition was greeted by 60,000 dead and dying human beings.
[My father carried a tooth with him in his wallet for 50+years ..that of a man who snapped it out of his jaw in thanks for liberation..........more of a F*** you to the Nazis who extracted Gold teeth from their captives.]

My Father continued in the Army until 1950...........he was dishonorably discharged as medically unfit for duty.....because he questioned his posting to Korea.....because he had by then 4 young children,,,[and Army housing only counted if you were in England....therefore my Mother and siblings would have no home]..........his insubordination's was treated with contempt....they were marched out of barrack housing in 4 hours from discharge....utter humiliation.

Upon civilian life my father was a Singer a Coal Miner...a Security Guard......
He was an Alcoholic......and for all my childhood years i recall nightly screaming from his room [he slept alone] from night terrors..............

I am the youngest of 9 children ....................my second eldest a sister.........told me whilst on leave from the Royal Navy 1981 [aged 17] that my FATHER raped her and my eldest sister............................................ .............................

I held that in my head until 1992.....................then upon the knowing i was to become a Father i exploded.............and asked my parents for the truth.................................

it was all denied...............even by the elder sister........

the sister who told me..................has been in a secure residential home since 1998 when her third husband [a wife beater] died of Cancer....she believed she had killed him......her true diagnosis is Alcohol induced schizophrenia....90% of the time she is in a catatonic state............with fleeting moments of her past........no present...at all .................dimentia..........at 60 years old:(

I can only accept in what my parents and elder siblings say to be the truth..........and i struggle for the truth daily...........i loved my Father......and my Sister .........greatly......[the two who always really cared about me........]

My Father like i said died of Stomach Cancer...............in 1996...........he was brought up in destitution and absolute poverty...........his schooling was governed by Catholic Priests..........who taught hell....and brimstone.....wrath and damnation..........

He had a 5inch scar above hi right eye where a priest.......hit him with a wooden cane.....................for not wearing shoes to mass [his father had pawned them for food]

He feared death from an early age..........the horrors of war that tormented...fifty years of sleep.......that he only discussed in 1995 with British Army Doctors.........who only then acknowledged he was suffering WAR STRESS //+ PTSD.............SIGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

On his Birthday 12/4/96 he was diagnosed with stomach Cancer and told he had three months to live............

I remember being in my parents house when a priest came to visit from the hospice.........My dad spent 2 hours telling jokes............

The priest upon leaving.....stated to me ..my Father was coping very well..........

I went ballistic..........................I asked the priest if he had ever spoken to my Father about his debilitating fear of death.......and fear.........of hell..as proclaimed by his teachers in 1932...........

He looked shocked...........when i told him talk to my father and resolve his peace on this earth.........or never come to this house again.............

thankfully after i returned home this priest came to my parents home..........and cast aside the jokes..and dragged out my fathers fears.....giving him some peace of mind................

he died 21/6/1996/////////////the longest day.............[and always will be]

I will never know if my FATHER was not the hero i remember.........i can only accept his , my mothers and siblings denial of untoward..............

But if any man had a reason to take his life.....my father had one.[maybe several] .maybe fear of the assumed afterlife prevented.........his personal intervention on the timing of his death.............................and he allowed creation to decide ..................................

MY FATHER WAS THE ONLY PERSON TO CONTACT ME AFTER MY ATTEMPTED SUICIDE .............HE JUST SAID .........................' SON LEARN TO LIVE LIFE'.................NO CHASTISEMENT...ONLY ...........................LOVE...................
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWuBS...eature=related

PLAYED AT HIS FUNERAL...............WHERE NO ONE WAS ALLOWED TO SAY EULOGY?????????????????????????????????????????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwCPAo5e_F8

and my fears................continue..................... ...............

David:hug:

Hello, David: Yours is truly a remarkable story. I hope you will continue to share it. So much despair and anxiety, and truth. Justice, too, maybe...

Yes, I know about Yentl. Another remarkable story. For Streisand fans, here's another one: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2f...ere-1985_music

David, keep doing what you're doing -- and living.

Tom