Dear Tom!

I celebrate with you!

.... your survival of D-Day :yahoo:

.... your reaching out to us here

.... your continuing to be here, and reach out to us and to others

~ waves ~

Hello, David:

I don't see how the firemen who entered the building could be said to have "committed suicide." (It would be interesting to have a fireman enter this forum and discuss death and his occupation). They knew what they were doing was dangerous -- but lethal in this particular case? Now, let's say somebody had told them: look, you're going to go into that building and try to save lives. However, in your effort, you definitely, absolutely, are going to die. In that case, if they voluntarily entered the building, they STILL would not be committing suicide. The deciding point: their INTENTION was not to die, but to save lives.

Reduce suffering and pain ... no question about it. Dignity is involved therein.

As for elderly people ... I went into a nursing home 6 times per week for almost 4 years to visit my mother. I got to know a lot of people. For many, the nursing home was a great place -- they were with other people, they got waited on and so forth. For others (such as my mother), it was pure hell with zero dignity, and death was preferable. Dignity? What is dignity? I think each person has to be evaluated on an individual basis... tough work indeed.

This is great news to read Tom! I'm so glad you are still hanging tough for what ever reason! :grouphug:
Now I get to be nosey....who is we? A significant other? (asking this so I can "use" it against you later..:D) And mkt? Farmers Mkt? London? Paris? It's a beautiful day here in Indiana...had a great lunch with sister at a new restaurant and we'd go back again..armed with more $$ next time. :rolleyes:

And Mark, I am so sorry to read about Jodi. :( While in NY recently we visited the Firemans museum there and it was wrenching to see all the men's pictures and think of all the families left behind. :hug:

Alffe, thank you ever so much for the links. The one on Oregon is fascinating. Minelli's organization is far more controversial.

Tom

Hello, Rrae: Thanks for your contribution. As I said, I suspect a lot of things were going on inside people's heads. One time I faced death on a motorcycle: turn to the left needed, cement bridge coming up. Tried to lean to turn left; nothing happened; the kickstand had fallen down! Looking at the approaching bridge I thought ... it's over ... the end. Overwhelming circumstances; everything outside my control; no time even to panic or to feel much of anything; no time ... well, that's that ...

I can see a great drama in your and Waves' and David's and Alffe's and Mark's and everybody else's comments. "12 Angry Men" (Henry Fonda)-pressure cooker atmosphere: people discussing/debating/arguing/agreeing about 9/11; you realize one bit at a time that the people ... were caught in the Towers and they're replaying what happened. THEY WERE THERE...

Regarding Minelli's organization, Dignitas, right? I watched the video The Suicide Tourist.

I had never heard of this organization. Reminds me of the building in Soylent Green.

I only wish that there was more money being done in pain management so people wouldn't need to go to places like that.

We end up sending money to other countries. How about taking care of the people in the USA? More research in Stem Cell therapy to fight these diseases. That's what we really need. Not more places that will end our lives.

Just my opinion.

Melody

Hello, Waves: I appreciate your concern. No, I was not hurt. Like you, I think spirited discussions must be welcomed; otherwise, everything degenerates into a "Me Too" sort of nonsense, and people abandon the area.

Yes, I knew the Koran explicitly condemned suicide. Which only goes to show that some people can turn anything into an extremist religion: a straight line will do. Speaking of fanciful interpretations:

Your concluding remark hit home. We don't know who is reading these words, how they are being interpreted, and so forth. I thank you for bringing this genuine concern to the forefront.

I politely intervene here.........


Most of my posts to this thread Tom............have been to seek redress in the fact , that subliminally you have tried to..........rationalise death by ones own decision.....

if the depressed 20 something, high on drink....kills himself that's....[wrong]

if the more mature person dying of an incurable illness kills themselves [that's OK]

What i have tried to convey and other posters know my thoughts.........

If a passer by.....looks in on this site......be it they are the former or later group..........do you think..............for one moment..............that our messages could influence another persons stance on life/death

I for one know it can have such an impact................[the clue is in the forum name SUVIVORS OF SUICIDE]

..............

Sadly my honesty about my life..has raised areas where i feel this comparison of yours to close for comfort..

........and at that time of my attempted taking of my life, i was a 20 something......drunk...depressed.......[home owner, beautiful wife, 11 month old baby upstairs, well paid job.......................i had everything to live for]..[apparently]

no///////one knew what i thought inside.............no one,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


I claim not to not to know what is in your mind.......and in the end what you decide will be of your own making...............your CHOICE [i have no problem with your choice]

But please do not dress up your condition to be lesser than those who tried and succeeded, and those like me that failed.........but seek hope to survive...........

Who are not ill[enough] to meet a less distatesful demise.................

David

PS

Never did i sugest 343 Firefighters ...........comitted suicide,,,,,,,,,,,,[you know this ...re-read please]

I clearly offered an alternative Sceneario to your debate.............

343 walked in to burning buildings to save life but met death[many went into tower 2, after tower one had collapsed Knowing a possible fate of their own]


200 jointly fled both buildings from desperation and fear..............

neither groups voluntarily chose to take their life [yet both groups could not gaurentee life by their actions]


pps

Quote
Hello, David: Yours is truly a remarkable story. I hope you will continue to share it. So much despair and anxiety, and truth. Justice, too, maybe...



please explain the JUSTICE part please????????????????????????

Freethought
 

And that's MY opinion Melody!!

Dear Tom

i am glad you are ok with our exchanges.

thank you for hearing my concern and for understanding. :hug:

~ waves ~