This is hard for me to write, my loss is still recent and I don't have years of healing behind me to help me try to put logic to, an illogical act. I am raw. My wound are still bleeding.

I look at my shattered family, I feel myself dying inside, just as surely as if he had shot me too .... In my darker moments, I often think it would have been kinder if he had.

I see, and feel deeply - all the pain he left behind, and I wonder, how can suicide be considered anything but selfish?

Calling my Dad, my hero, selfish, cuts me to the core.

But what else can I call it?

Was it not selfish- to end his pain, only to leave others in insurmountable pain?

Was it not selfish - to feel himself sinking and not seek help?

Was it not selfish - to not reach out and tell his family how he felt?

Was it not selfish - to not give us a chance to help him?

Was it not selfish - to shoot himself where we had no choice but to find him?

Was it not selfish - to leave these thoughts forever tormenting our waking hours and haunting us in our sleep?

Was it not selfish - to leave us in such immense pain we don't know how we can live through it?

Was it not selfish - to not love us enough to hang on?

It all comes back to that, he didn't love me enough to stay. How does one heal from that? I would have given anything, everything -to have helped him. But, he didn't give me a chance.

I am not saying I do not understand the feelings, the want to end the pain by ending your life. Thanks to Dad, that is a feeling I have almost every day since he killed himself. I understand it all too well.

I understand that a rational mind would not take their life. THAT is the only thing that is keeping me going.....believing he did not mean to hurt us to the point of our own destruction. I do know in the deepest recesses of my mind that he couldn't understand that he would destroy all who loved him.

Without guilt, and with love in my heart for him, I can say I do believe my Dad was selfish. When he couldn't hold on for him another moment, he should have held on for us!! He should have given us the chance to help him fight!

I am truly sorry if I offend anyone..... hugs to the room

I think ever since dear Alpho started the SOS forum over 10 years ago, there have been "debates" over the selfishness/selfless act of suicide...

I am not sure who has the answers...

to start off, we are all different. EVERYONE of us...

yes, we can say there are type A-type Z personalities and we can kind of group "like-minded" people together...

but the truth is, who knows...

~~~~~~~~~~~
I am digressing a bit here, so skip this part if anyone gets bored with my wandering...

I remember as a kid, one of my relatives told me the horror story of how he survived the Holocaust of the East.

During the same time that the Nazis were persecuting the Jews, the Chinese were being slaughtered by the Japanese(I really don't want to use "Japanese" but they didn't have a name like "Nazis" and "Japs" is too disrespectful... because it is of a different time. Long story short. A german phd went to Japan and somehow, had a connection with some Japanese PHD and had both convinced themselves that they were the Aryan race of each side. The Japanese being the Aryan of the East and the Germans the Aryan of the West) in the thousands....

(and the word "Aryan", is really not negative to start with....anyways, I am really digressing here)

one of the stories he told me that has stuck with me til this day (BIG WARNIG, VERY GRAPHIC) was that he remember seeing one woman who was raped multiple times and then had her womb opened up with a bayonet and they took out her baby and cooked it.

she was still alive and asked anyone passing by to kill her...she had no more strength and was dying...but she wanted to die...

in that case, was that a selfish act?

Art Spiegelman, the famous underground cartoonist who drew "MAUS" whose parents survived concentration camp.

the harsh conditions of the concentration camp didn't not kill his mother.

she committed suicide years after the camp. (the possible guess from Art was that she never got over Richieu, Art's older brother's death)

(this is a quote from wiki:

He had one brother named Richieu who died before Art was born. Richieu was caught in the conflicts of World War II and was sent to live with an aunt, Tosha, since the Zawiercie ghetto where she resided seemed safer than the Sosnowiec-Środula ghetto. When the Nazis started to deport people from the Zawiercie ghetto, Tosha poisoned herself, Richieu, her own daughter (Bibi) and her niece (Lonia). )
In that case, where Tosha had to kill herself, Richieu, and her own kids, was that a selfish act?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

but then, there was a guy named Matt that was in my high school. Who supposed had everything going for him.

Ladies' man, good looking, out going, popular...

he carved on the math table that he was going to shoot himself that night (I sat at that table in the class after his) and he did....

was that a selfish act??

I don't know of the circumstances but from my perspective, yes, it was....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have no answers...I can name many different scenerios...

including my own...

at the different times that I'd thought about doing it, which I still do, from time to time...

the feeling of loneliness and self-hatred was a theme that never changed....

did I convinced myself that I would put everyone out of their misery if I was gone. Yes....

did I think about the consequences? YES...(not everytime, but YES!)

to me, would it be a selfish act...well, the thoughts of it would NOT be but the act itselve WOULD be...

and then, I wouldn't have the perspectives of those that are alive and surviving around me...because each one of them would have their own reactions...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

before my surgery and I was in a lot of pain, I thought about the "Future" of taking my own life...it wasn't something that I was obsessed with. It was something that I thought about from time to time.

I looked at our situation. With two kids, moss being so busy already....and the chance of me becoming "useless" for the rest of my life...

I asked myself do I want to be a burden to her and anyone...
I said no...

did I ask myself that that it was selfish, I have to be honest. I thought I would be doing everyone a huge favor because I cannot be a useless person especially to the ones that I loved...

but....

I know moss suffered a great heartbreak when her first husband took his life. I know that she already was suffering when her brother took his life years before her first husband's (who chose the SAME date that moss's brother committed suicide)

and then, I came here and read about Alpho's pain, nik's pain, BJ's pain, and everyone elses own pain or the pain that they suffered...

and I am thankful, that I KNOW where to go when the demons come a knocking at my brain and try to convince that I am being selfless....

because for me, I know that I would've committed the most selfish act knowing what I know...and especially now about moss's first husband and her brother...
(I am talking about me...not anybody else)

~~~~~~~~~~~

the perpetual questions lead to more questions....

we can only survive, somehow...no, it'll never be the same, but that's the meaning of "SURVIVAL": we live through it, just not the way we like to live through it...

makes me think of Robinson Crusoe a bit...he had to survive all by himself...I am sure he hated it, but he survived...anyways...

((((BIG HUGS))))) for the room

((Moi)) Thank you

I believe that there are times when taking ones own life is not selfish. People who are terminal, the lady you wrote about, the victims of 9/11.... to me there is a HUGE difference, ALL the difference.... in taking ones life for such causes... and suicide because one just gives up, stops fighting.

Dad's suicide is a very personal hell I am trying to endure. I almost didn't write the above post. In fact I erased it several times.....

but then I thought about how I believe Dad did not know the pain he would leave behind... people need to know how badly they will destroy the ones they love...

And then, I felt compelled to write about the pain he left me in, about how I feel about his suicide. If it gives one person pause, it was worth the pain it took me to write it.

came back to add...

I think of the Hemingway family...

(from wiki:

Other members of Hemingway's immediate family also committed suicide, including his father, Clarence Hemingway, his siblings Ursula and Leicester, and his granddaughter Margaux Hemingway. Some believe that certain members of Hemingway's paternal line had a hereditary disease known as haemochromatosis (bronze diabetes))

and there's Sylvia Plath and her son (he took his life recently, if I am not mistaking)

and I think of some parts of suicide MIGHT be hereditary...then, what do we call those kind of suicides?? Would that be selfish then??

I dunno....I just dunno....
but that's why I am here....

I love you guys not only because you brighten my day and help me stay alive....

but you ask questions and you give me your independent thoughts and it helps one THINK...

To THINK, is to BE...

(now I have to go pee because it rhymes with be...hey, if you have pre-k kids you'd be rhymed to death, too. That's what they do all day now, rhyming and making up words that rhymes...LOL)

nik,

I am so glad you didn't decide to erase what you've written because the ONE thing about you that we need here...

IS that RAW and POWERFUL emotion...

and while it may not save EVERYONE out there, trust me when I say this with conviction...

it has/will/did save many lives...

MY OWN, included....there are nights when it has become so dark....and the mind starts to play tricks with myself....and moss is well and sound asleep....

that my only life line, is to come here and read....and believe me...I read yours...

even if I don't get to read here...I REMEMBER...and I tell it to myself in my mind....

so, thank you....

(((BIG HUGS)))

Clinical reports show that not only has the suicide branded the decedent as psychologically damaged, it has often left the survivor feeling stigmatized and defective. Survivors may have a potential for themselves committing suicide because of the example set by the suicide of their loved one.

Other feelings frequently found in excess are guilt and anger. Guilt feelings may plague the survivor with question of "what if" and thoughts of "if only". Constant rumination over the events leading up to the death may leave the survivor convinced it could have been averted if only he had said this, or done that. Sometimes the guilt is projected onto others, and therapists, lovers, or family scapegoats may be blamed. When survivors fix blame on an outside source, their intense anger may dismiss all sources of help, even for unrelated problems.

Grief and Mourning After Suicide by Norman L. Farberow, Ph.D

American Foundation for Suicide Prevention AFSP's Lifesavers newsletter

The thing that makes sense to me is this (when judging someone who, to us, appears to have had good reasons to live): Someone who can say,"I wanted to, but didn't because I knew it would be selfish, or I knew it would wound my family & friends-is someone who didn't. That is why they didn't-they could hold onto that sane thought. Picturing oneself owning an alternative action is a lucid thought. Not seeing any options is the error the mind makes at that moment. I remember so clearly, thinking "Oh, now I see why people do it-because they know they should." That is the slippery slope of depression for me-the fear that I could again slide down so far that the irrational beliefs will set up shop in my mind. I call it knowing, and beliefs, because at the time, that is what it is-not something you are thinking-something you believe because you think you are seeing & understanding truth. ~~~But I think (((Nik-key))) does a wonderful, wonderful service to continue to give a strong voice of reason. It is the voice of reason that can sometimes save someone. Sometimes it is their own voice in their head. Sometimes it is the voice of someone else they "hear". Sometimes they cannot not hear-in time.

Or, they didn't think at all...just impulsively reacted to the

pain and anguish...just wanted it to stop.

Manda got me to thinking when she was getting rid of emails and painful memories in her life. I still have all the letters Michael's fiancee wrote to him...when my neighbor (who's son committed suicide) was here recently I told her that and she said "why?" And I admitted that I didn't know why.

And I'm thinking that I'll learn from Manda and get rid of those today. But knowing me, I'll have to reread them all first and that will stir me up...and Aug. always stirs me up anyway as it's his birthday month.

And inspite of all my frailities, it really does get better Nikki...I promise.

Quote

Or, they didn't think at all...just impulsively reacted to the

pain and anguish...just wanted it to stop.




Which is the point where i truly stand..........

A person can be diagnosed as suffering from clinical depression if:

(A) Five (or more) of the following symptoms have been present during the same 2-week period and represent a change from previous functioning; at least one of the symptoms is either (1) depressed mood or (2) loss of interest or pleasure.

(1) depressed mood most of the day, nearly every day, as indicated by either subjective report (e.g., feels sad or empty) or observation made by others (e.g., appears tearful). Note: In children and adolescents, can be irritable mood.



(2) markedly diminished interest or pleasure in all, or almost all, activities most of the day, nearly every day (as indicated by either subjective account or observation made by others)



(3) significant weight loss when not dieting or weight gain (e.g., a change of more than 5% of body weight in a month), or decrease or increase in appetite nearly every day. Note: In children, consider failure to make expected weight gains.



(4) insomnia or hypersomnia nearly every day



(5) psychomotor agitation or retardation nearly every day (observable by others, not merely subjective feelings of restlessness or being slowed down)



(6) fatigue or loss of energy nearly every day



(7) feelings of worthlessness or excessive or inappropriate guilt (which may be delusional) nearly every day (not merely self-reproach or guilt about being sick)



(8) diminished ability to think or concentrate, or indecisiveness, nearly every day (either by subjective account or as observed by others)



(9) recurrent thoughts of death (not just fear of dying), recurrent suicidal ideation without a specific plan, or a suicide attempt or a specific plan for committing suicide

(B) The symptoms do not meet criteria for a Mixed Episode.



(C) The symptoms cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.



(D) The symptoms are not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition (e.g., hypothyroidism).



(E) The symptoms are not better accounted for by Bereavement, i.e., after the loss of a loved one, the symptoms persist for longer than 2 months or are characterized by marked functional impairment, morbid preoccupation with worthlessness, suicidal ideation, psychotic symptoms, or psychomotor retardation.



I ask sincerely of you good people, to ask the question is depression a selfish act.
Some people may say yes.........those are the people depression has not yet visited in its cruelest form... these people cry...'pull yourself together' 'stop whining' etc,,,,,,those that say no,,,,have met depression in its true sense...its cruel dibillitating soul destroying sense.

Sadly many die from suicide, sadly many suffered depression.....even more sadder....is many died not telling their loved ones how wretched they were feeling.

David