man-oh-man. I am not sure if I would define polite society in quite those terms.

And taking one instance of a woman that did not have a gun at Luby's is not exactly a good reason for guns in bars.

Taking a concealed weapon to a public place is just uncool. To a pool hall or any restaurant...a concealed weapon?

I recall an incident in a bar back 30 years ago when I was in my 20's. Long story short, I had put my quarter on the table to play a game of pool. Two quarters were ahead of mine. Two guys thought the first quarter belonged to them. A fight ensued. One guy sounded like an animal grunting and out of control, what if a gun toter felt threatened and shot his gun?

When both men were cleared out, the question became who's quarter is next...:eek::)

I understand your concern and fears...but the statistics don't support your fears. When concealed carry is legalized, violent crime goes down. If people are willing to fight and shoot somebody over a quarter, then they are unlikely to be the type of people to sit through hours of CHL instruction and go through the process of getting a license. They are more likely to just carry a weapon illegally...in which case it doesn't really matter what the law is.

In fact that scenario exactly justifies my comment about a polite society. If both guys were in the bar wondering if the other was packing heat, they would be less likely to pick a fight over a quarter...

TXBatman - That is an interesting chart. I like Wiz's comment of there being 5 times more men in TX than women. LOL

However, the chart doesn't depict of those crimes how many were gun/alcohol related arrests. In other words, and I am NOT saying this is the case, all of the CHL arrests could have been due to guns and alcohol. I think that is the issue.

The chart also does not show the total gun owners within the state of TX and therefore, it it really doesn't say much to me.

Using charts and graphs effectively and to portray true statistics is tricky. When I was working in the hospitals doing trends and statistics, if I chose the wrong chart or way to present the data, I could make it look like something it really wasn't. Magazines, newspapers, etc. are notorious for poor charts and graphs.

Based on the chart you posted, CHL carries tend to be less violent than other criminals. How do they compare to the rest of the population?

I will say though, a friend of mine is licensed to carry a concealed weapon. As I mentioned he usually doesn't conceal it. He got really sick and I mean really bad. We went to see him and for the 1st time in the 10 years I have known him he didn't have his gun on him. He said that he was so weak and his vision was so blurry and weird that he was afraid that he wouldn't see something right (along with being weak) and shoot. More specifically, he was afraid it would be his wife coming home from work. So, yes he is responsible and knows his limits.

BTW - I did go to the link and still, it doesn't mention alcohol with any of the violent crimes. I think that is the original issue on this thread - alcohol and guns in a bar.

That IS comparing the CHL owners to the rest of the population. Ignore the charts if you want...read the link with the actual stats. A male CHL holder is 7.7 times LESS likely to commit a violent crime than the general population.

The link I posted doesn't have much in the way of discussion of it, but I have seen other studies that go into more detail of what types of crimes are committed by CHL holders. It boils down to things like child molestation and aggravated assault of a family member...the types of crimes that result from a messed up mind to begin with. There are a few bad apples that will get the permit, but the level of crime in CHL holders is still below the population as a whole, and in nearly all of those crimes, the simple possession of the gun didn't cause or facilitate the crime. Having a gun doesn't cause a person to become a child molester or a wife-beater...those things were already there in their personality.

As for your friend, one of the hallmarks of being a responsible gun owner is understanding your limitations and never taking a shot at something or somebody that you can't identify. It is sad that your friend is that sick...but good that he knows his limitations and is practicing responsible ownership accordingly.

Don't get me wrong...I am not saying that no CHL holder will ever take a gun into a bar and get into a fight because of this new law. What I will say is that I don't think you see a big uptick in shootings at bars. If a CHL holder was the type to break the law, get drunk, and shoot somebody in a bar fight, they were also the type that would have carried into the bar even without the new law. I have just seen the "wild west" analogy used over and over by people opposed to each new incremental step in CHL rights, and it never pans out that way. Over and over the stats show that crime goes down, not up.

I do see your point, TXBatman. Like I mentioned before we have a group of friends that are gun enthusiasts (that one friend included). On any given weekend they are either at the range, at a gun show, or in the bar (we do have a bar on the outskirts of town that has targets set up). :D They are all certified, educated, etc. in gun use and all are mild mannered. They each have thousands and thousands of dollars invested in their guns and take pride in them. So, I do get where a gun enthusiast comes from based on these guys.

I just didn't see in the chart and within the link the alcohol portion that we were talking about. Was alcohol involved in any of the arrests the general population and/or the CHL carriers? I wasn't able to find that. Was it a hidden factor in the data? Did I miss that somewhere?

For the purpose of this thread, that is what I would want to see/know.

I also don't know how bar owners will control this. That is going to be tricky.

I misunderstood what you were asking about. That chart doesn't deal with alcohol specific crimes at all. The study that chart came from was one that was done 4 years after Texas passed laws legalizing concealed carry. The aim of the study was to determine whether CHL holders were more or less likely to commit a crime than the general population. It was meant to combat the "wild west" predictions that many who were opposed to concealed carry made when the law passed.

Gun enthusiast...good term for it. Your friends sound like fun! I always laugh when people say "why do you need so many guns?" or "why do you need a gun that has a 30 round magazine?" What they don't understand is that it is just another hobby, and shooting is fun. It isn't all about militias and mall ninjas. Just because they don't understand it or wouldn't want to do it themselves doesn't mean it is wrong for others to do. I could ask them "why do you need so many Beanie Babies?" or "why does Jay Leno need 30 cars including ones that will go 200+mph?" The answer is that it is none of my business what other people choose to spend their money on.

As for the bar owners, I suspect quite a few will put up signs prohibiting carry...and some will put up signs saying "guns welcome". The folks that are scared of people with guns will go to the ones with signs prohibiting guns, and the folks who believe in concealed carry will go to the ones that say "guns welcome". In the end, the businesses will shuffle customers a bit and the clientele will change at a few spots, and in 6-12 months people will forget about it and not much will have really changed.

Which goes back to an earlier comment about how if you're really that leery of the neighborhood, why go there?

Bad things can happen anywhere and having a loaded gun doesn't ensure you won't be a victim. A local policeman in Minnesota was just shot and killed with his own gun a couple weeks ago answering a domestic dispute call at 8:30 in the morning (the cop's gun came in handy as all the assailant had was a FLAMING TOWEL).

Back to the bad neighborhood thing though; Is the football game (televised in only the one dive bar servicing rough-trade) SO important that the only way you'll enter the venue and watch it with your friends is if you can bring a loaded firearm to protect yourself?

Really?

If you thought the probablity was that high of being attacked by some thug in a notoriously bad neighborhood, I daresay it was probably unwise - or even asking for trouble - to go there in the first place.

p.s. I wouldn't eat a Chili's if you paid me. I think the FOOD there is criminal.

Interesting thread you guys.