Can you tell how much B6 you were taking daily?

This link and quote is considered medically accurate today.

from http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocente...ins/vitaminB6/

Blood level ranges do not reflect toxicity IMO. They were compiled from "normals" who were not taking vitamins when tested.
This link explains:
http://labtestsonline.org/understand...ranges?start=0

For example, the reference range for B12 in US today, still reports, results below 400 down to 200 as normal. And current medical opinion is that this is WRONG. There can be significant neurological damage in the 200-300 range. And conversely, a result over 850-1000 is considered out of range...but for B12 there is no upper safety limit in existence. High B12 reading in people NOT taking a vitamin supplement may however indicate a rare disease that has high B12 as a sign. But for people taking B12 for improving pernicious anemia, or other neuro reason, being high is desirable.

That is just one example. Being high in something can even be factitious...potassium is one test that can be done wrong and give a false high. If the blood sample is handled in such a way that the red cells burst, then the potassium spills out into the serum and gives that sample a high reading that is not reflective of the serum without burst cells. It is believed that some nutrient testing falls into this category too.

I've looked for papers --the few papers that describe real toxicity from too much B6---which years ago were made in response to PMS treatments that used 500mg-1000mg a day of B6 to treat PMS. I could not find any blood levels on those abstracts to support the neuropathy claims. It was then that the anecdotal reports detailed B6 neuropathy toxic results.
There are just not many in fact, but doctors hold onto to potential of it just the same, as they report low B12 as normal.

The only way to know more accurately if you are really high, is to have intracellular testing. And that information is on this thread before this post.

One would expect anyone taking vitamins to show that in the blood work. Toxic ranges for DRUGS are done however as part of the FDA approval process for animals and humans. Nutrients have not been elucidated in this way for vitamins. The FDA has "recommendations" called upper safety limits for most RDA vitamins today. And the Linus Pauling link I have here gives that.

It is not really necessary for people to go over 50mg a day IMO.
Some athletes go higher because pyridoxal is needed by muscle and people with Pyroluria lose B6 rapidly in the urine, so they tend to go higher, and typically use P5P for that reason. I have not seen ONE paper demonstrating that the active form P5P has the same toxic potential as the regular pyridoxine.(which may build up if not converted to P5P in the body).

So for you it really depends on what total amount you are taking daily. Sometimes nerves "wake up" during healing and give confusing symptoms, which may be interpreted as negative, but only reflect the healing process. That can confuse issues also.

Many antibiotics for Lyme chronic treatment do deplete B6 and other vitamins. So taking "some" is a good idea. But huge amounts are not typically necessary.

Hi,

I was taking 100mg in a B Complex Vitamin, 25 mg in a multivitamin, and I eat many foods rich in B6. I completely stopped taking the vitamins but a doctor suggested that perhaps the B6 was not being absorbed correctly and the P5P could help. I just didn't want to start taking the P5P and make things worse!

So -- as I understand what you have stated in your previous posts, my blood levels could be high but that doesn't mean toxicity...and that, in fact, I could be deficient in B6. Does B6 deficiency cause neuropathy as well?

Thanks in advance for your advice.

Yes, it can be confusing, and most doctors can't tell either.

Too little B6 leads to neuropathies. Then there is the very high doses which over time, can also cause nerve damage...which I believe is a bit different in presentation. A very fine difference.
B6 has this paradoxical problem which makes it very difficult to
diagnose, using symptoms.

If you are not converting pyridoxine to pyridoxal in the body then pyridoxine would build up, not be working biologically for you and show up in serum tests. If you stop the Bcomplex 100mg, and just take the P5P for a while--- most P5P's are not that high dose, you can see if you feel better. A multivit for the rest of the B's, could suffice. NOW brand is enteric coated and not expensive. Available on iherb.com
You'll want enteric coated because P5P is sensitive to stomach acid. Stay below 100mg a day, and you should be okay.
B6 pyridoxine requires B2 riboflavin to convert to active pyridoxal (using the enzyme pyridoxal kinase).
http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-P-5-P...blets/740?at=0
(this is an example).'

The hint here is that a study was done on autistic children, who were NOT taking any supplements. And they scored high in serum B6. That suggests something is "wrong", but the answer has not been confirmed as yet. So testing B6 is not like testing Digoxin or phenytoin, or lithium levels. With drugs, there are clear cut protocols that have been put in place before they were put on the market.

There might be an answer in some obscure text somewhere, but I haven't found it yet regarding the B6 lab ranges.
And the bottom line is that there have been very few, rare cases of toxicity documented at all.

Wow, that is really helpful. Do you know how quickly the neuropathy from B6 deficiency reverses? That is to say, how quickly would the neuropathy improve once I start taking the P5P?

Why is this so poorly researched? And may I ask (sorry if this is posted elsewhere), did you have a personal experience with B6 problems?

I started P5P over a decade ago... when my neuropathy was severe. I had terrible carpal tunnel. Over time the neuropathy got better, so I don't take the P5P every day anymore. I actually introduced P5P to our older home board...the PN and ADHD boards. In those days I used Solgar brand, as it was the only one available for a while.

There are so many actions of B6 in the body, that they must all compete for whatever is available. The muscles especially, so exercise increases needs for it.

B6 is essential for making neurotransmitters in the brain, and when my son was severely ADHD in school, I began a non-drug regimen for him. That is when I did my B6 investigations.
It remains very important today still.

If your neuropathy is from B6 deficiency it may take months to improve. It is not a swift effect. You should also investigate our Subforum at Peripheral Neuropathy, as I have a Supplements section there too. R-lipoic acid and Benfotiamine may be helpful for you, as it has been for me too. Now that I take them daily, I don't need my wrist braces nearly as often as before.

Healing up takes time. It took time to get where you are, and it will take some time to get back. But slow changes should be obvious in a couple of months. B6 is not the only player, and without a complete history of your issues, previous drug use, current drug use (antibiotics, statins, or others that can damage nerves) it is hard to recommend what to do. Magnesium works with B6, so you need to pay attention to it also.

Lyme does cause nerve damage itself independently of the depletion factor of nutrients. But I don't have experience with many Lyme patients. Sorry.

If you tell me the drugs you were on, I can look them up and see which nutrients are affected the most by the antibiotics.

THANK YOU for your help. I have been fortunate to encounter so many people who are generous with their time and knowledge and you are no exception!!

I was on oral Doxycycline for 2 months (200 -- 400 mg/day) and IV ceftriaxone (Rocephin) 2g/day for 28 days. all in all, 3 months on some tough antibiotics!!

Other than that, no drug history whatsoever. I take a load of supplements....for neuropathy: mainly NAC, Co Q10, Alpha Lipoic Acid, and B2 (Riboflavin).

Thank you.

Thank you in advance for your help.

I took oral Doxycycline (200 -- 400 mg/day) for roughly two months. Then i had an IV of Ceftriaxone (Rocephin) 2g/day for 28 days. All in all, roughly 3 months of antibiotics. (I had neurological lyme). I did not take any vitamins or supplements, other than a probiotic, while on the antibiotics (I was afraid I would take something that would reduce the efficacy of the antibiotics).

Interestingly, my neuropathy started after I had already started the antibiotics, which is why we think it might be related to a vitamin/nutrient problem. It came on very quickly, numbness and tingling in my extremties.

No other drug history. I exercise a lot and eat a healthy diet, if that is any help!

Thank you so much.

First off..... I'd start drinking Kefir daily. This has just been a miracle for me. I have about 4-6 ounces every day now as insurance! Doxy is very hard on the bowel. Kefir is lactose free and gluten free. I mix 1/2 and 1/2 Peach and unflavored low fat.
(to keep the sugar down). Hubby likes the Blueberry one.

Lifeway Kefir is reasonably priced and comes in flavors and has 12 probiotics in it... It reversed a huge GI problem I had in Aug and again in Sept this year.

A friend got me on it (I already eat yogurts), but this is far superior.
http://www.lifeway.net/
Our nearby Kroger's has it, which is handy for us!

Rocephin depletes:
All the B's including Biotin
lactobacillus and bifidobacteria
Vitamin K (probably from killing off beneficial bacteria).
Inositol

Doxycycline:
depletes the same as above with additional:
calcium
magnesium
iron
(this is probably by complexing it out of food).

I think some toxins would also be created by the Herx reaction of the die off of the Lyme. These can be tough. I've had people with other antibiotic use, complain of feeling ill from die off.
The Candida that results from the Doxy also makes tons of aldehydes, and these affect the nerves when high. Benfotiamine can help with that (a better form of thiamine).

You might find you feel much much better using the Kefir. I was having trouble eating spicy foods, and some other things before I started it, and now I can eat anything I want (except fructose). I am not having so much Raynaud's symptoms in my hands and feet either.

I would switch to R-lipoic acid "stabilized" form instead of alpha lipoic. It is very highly absorbed and 100mg a day on an empty stomach is all you need.
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/sh...ght=stabilized
I use Doctor's Best (now available reasonably from Amazon!)


I also use 300mg of theanine now, at night. I believe it helps.
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/sh...light=Theanine
I like the theanine very much and because of it I will be trying a new supplement that is similar... called PharmaGaba. It hasn't arrived yet, so I don't know how it will go. The theanine is relaxing without sleepiness so it takes the "edge off" and I suppose it IS helping my feet now too. I only started it in August.

Wow....super helpful information. May I ask....any experience/success with other diet modifications? Do you avoid gluten? Sugar? What about exercise? I want to do anything that will help minimize the neuropathy, and avoid anything that might make it worse....

Thanks!!!

I did gluten free for 3 yrs....didn't work for me.

Fructose however, is a huge problem.

My PN was hypothyroid to begin with. Then the insulin resistance issue began and then I had it to contend with.

Now my PN is pretty stable again. Controlling sugar in a major way, and using the new supplements as they became obvious.

Exercise did little for me. It helps with stamina but not with daily PN issues. But I also have arthritis and that is an issue.

I really think the Kefir is a major intervention. So please do look at it and try.