Hey there,

Thank you so much for this note of support. Yes, i am feeling better after sleep and coffee. I love coffee. Coffee is pretty safe.



~ waves ~

Thanks for the note. It is a relief that so many people understand. I can appreciate how you feel about about the pots and pans.

I had a banana last night which i did enjoy. And... somewhat reluctantly... a ham sandwich. I normally eat ham, but last night i would have preferred vegetarian/vegan. However the ham is near expiration and should any go to waste because of my temporary weirdness it would bother me more in the end. I ate it while distracting myself with tv.

~ waves ~

thank you for such a thoughtful response! you make some very good points.

after a while i stopped smelling anything ... that is just as well!

yes. i think you hit the nail on the head.well, there is abusive cattle farming, but not all farms are abusive. however my understanding about why people don't eat veal is that it is so tender because of how they treat them... and it is abusive. i don't know if that has changed. veal is different here. they are killed younger but they are not kept locked up and stuff.

yes this is true too. it is much more specific than a whole country or even an area, and we do make decisions as we grow... some by taste, some by conscience, perhaps a bit of both.
do you have any insight as to why you are grossed out? milk - well i know you use soy milk - but milk cheese and butter do not involve killing anything. eggs are so-so because they are potential beings, even though the ones gathered for eating have not been fertilized.

i was semi-vegetarian (specifically, lacto-(ovo)-piscean-vegetarian) at one time. ovo in parens because i rarely ate eggs. the meatlessness was mostly because of taste. first i couldn't tolerate medium cooked red meat. later, even if it was well done. then, even chicken started to taste "iron-ey" and the sight of sinews etc grossed me out.

i am very limited in what meat i am willing to cook. it basically comes down to ground beef, and chicken or turkey breast (the boned, flat, ready to toss in pan kind). when i lived alone i seldom had meat even though i had no longer had problems with the taste. i just preferred not to prepare it, and diet-wise, it is unnecessary to have it often. when i did, canned fish/cold cuts/canned meats were in first place - non-reminiscent of the living animal, going back to what Beth said.

yes, it is. i am grateful i will not be here when they have the leftovers. i don't know where they are in the fridge either - they seem to have been adequately covered up! after talking to her, it honestly appears that they did not realize it was such a bit deal for me. i think they figured it might be more about taste and that i might try it. my mother realized in the end it was more of an attitudinal difference when i gave her "the cat comparison." she has agreed to warn me if any other unusual meats should be planned for dinner.

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i have high respect for the rapport that some(?) Native American tribes had with animals. In general, there was great respect for animals. Not all were hunted, even ferocious ones. Those that were hunted were taken for food, and no more was taken than needed. They were consumed completely. Also at their death thanks were given to the spirit of the animal. It was a very conscious, respectful and connected way of being.
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Probably, per my current conscience, i would need to be vegan, but i have a different problem with that - i don't believe in having to require supplementation to make up for things you can't get from a vegan diet - notably, sufficient B12. so what remains is to somehow reconcile with the fact that we do eat meat, but have the minimum amount needed, minimize waste, and keep informed on the treatment of the animals raised for food (stop animal abuse in those areas as well).

boy! never would i have thought one dinner that i didn't even eat would have pulled such a head-job on me!

~ waves ~

HI,

I had this in my post that I edited out incase you were sensitive.
I put it back in.
Even though my siblings and were ok with helping out with the hobby farm, some things were not ok.
One time, my mother got a hold of some ducks (some one gave them to her) and made a kind of chicken salad with a couple of the ducks. We were horrified and refused to eat rest of the ducks (and it didn't help that she is a lousy cook.)
I think that the ducks might have been a problem because they were allowed to fly and walk around free until she brought them into the kitchen.
=-=-=-=-=
later:
My mom grew up on very small farm. Her family sometimes depended on the animals to eat. But farming is also about caring for the fruits and veggies too -- meet is an expensive protein. Beans work better as food.

Short thing on veal because I have to leave for a work thing: Male dairy calves live a few months (6?) and are cage (to the point of sensory deprivation). I don't know what my issue is exactly but wikipedia says that some US animal rights activitists made head way against the veal industry in the 1980s and that the veal industry has still not recovered. The 80s might have been the last time I had veal (if ever).


My father used to buy one male dairy calf for about $15 and bring it home to raise until it got huge and he could kill it or pay someone to. Then he and mom would spend a half a day cutting up the various cuts and labeling them for our freezer.
The calves and had to be "bottle fed" (it was a big bucket with a nipple) with milk formula. Then they got older and ate grain that my parents bought. We had a small yard/lot, so the animal did not get much food energy from grass but the animal had free reign to be an animal -- move back and forth from inside to outside, be out in the rain, experience the weather, .. . . At one point, we had between 1 -4 goats that we kept with the steer so the steer had a social life. It got to be a steer. it lived the life of a steer (as opposed to the factory farmed animals).

People who support dairy farmers also fiancially support the killing of male calves since they cannot be made to grow into dairy cows and cannot be made into veal in this country (not enough market).

I eat ground meats or packaged meats because of the braces and the bite problem but also because of some issues.
I rank the issues in this order for now. Some days the ranking changes:
1. We can't feed the world based on family farms (or even factory farms).
Also, animal farming is hugely destructive to the earth.
2. Ethically I don't like eating animal products (the whole Buddhism thing)
3. Health reasons (stuff the factory farmers feed the animals) : some research shows that many of us might do better eating mostly vegan.

I have not seriously researched / studied / thought about these issues. But those three things are what I am working on for myself.


I have to get dressed to leave (did wash my hair ).
I hope that this is sensitive enough.


M.

Dear Mari,

i will reply better later... for now just a quick thank you for your thoughts and this side note: we must be psychic, coz i just got a ... pardon the expression... wild hare up my... and washed my hair too!!!

actually, it was allergies. last time i tried a conditioning-shampoo that mom bought and was predictably and badly allergic to it. by today i was past itching to painful - every follicle on my head was screaming. i broke down and washed my hair in the sink since i could not handle a shower but could not handle my scalp in that state either. i feel sooooooo much better now!!!

i also trimmed my hair! was getting dry and coarse on the ends, and becoming "difficult."

i am wiped out now. so i will post back later, as i do have several things i would like to reply to in your post but i need more focus than i have now.

i too was concerned about saying some upsetting things btw, but remember this thread does have a trigger icon on it. i did that very, very purposefully, not just thinking of the original post... but the fact these very topics could emerge. so don't worry, if you're ok saying it... say it. but also remember that you may find "strong content" written by others in this thread.

anyway, for now, compliments on your hair, and here's wishing you a good day at work!

~ waves ~

Waves,
I'm glad that your hair got done today.
Mari

Hi,
I was rushing and I should know better to use general words like "issues"
I don't like the smell, texture, or taste of meat.
This has developed in the past 5 years (maybe longer) I think.
'Can't explain why I eat something I find distasteful. -- never mind my feelings about the planet, the animals, or my health.

I help hubby plan before he cooks. He does a lot of one pot meals with some tofu or beans mixed in with the meat. Some dishes are entirely non meat.

I'm very confused.
I should have only posted in response to the meat that sickened you and left it at that.

M.

Dear Waves,

Finally I am able to think.
I am an omnivore, at home when I was a child, every meal included meat.
In Tanzania at the boarding school I attended we had tomatoes on toast for breakfast on Friday mornings, every fortnight.
Boarding school in England was the same, without even that tomato on toast break.
I Africa, I prided myself on being a true 'jungee', and 'had a fantastic Australian Head Master - Mr. Nettlebeck, who had a friend who organised Safaris. Because I was so interested in wildlife, he would send me off every Friday with a group that would be going on a safari over the weekend. He built it into my curriculum.

There, on camping trips I had a lot of the 'smoked meats' that are the staples for those doing research on animals and don't get to go to the nearest towns to stock up too often. I will not go into details, but we pretty much ate any animal that had died of natural causes.
It didn't bother me then.

Now though I still love a juicy steak, or a roast, and eat lamb or chicken all the time and pork products ocassionaly, I know for sure I would not be able to eat the kinds of meat that I did when I was constantly going off on safaris. Sound paradoxical, doesn't it - to eat those very animals we were studying, but thats the way it was and I was young and never questioned it.
And I eat a lot of fish.

I have begun to enjoy entirely vegetarian meals now as long as they are not spicy - but as of now, I would not be able to turn completely vegetarian.

I can completely understand your revulsion. In South-East Asia all sorts of animals are eaten, and I can't handle that either.
And I am appalled every time someone mentions it or for some reason it comes to my mind.

Just stick to you guns and let your parents know what you will eat. If they cook what you would not like, then to let you so you can make your own arrangements.

It can be tricky sharing a kitchen when people have different attitudes to food.

Take care and let it be one of those things that you just have to dismiss from your mind.

I won't write again on this thread, so you don't get to dwell on this issue which is obviously bothering you a lot.

Dear Mari,

this addresses some of the points you/i brought up on farming... this post cites and discusses some of our more sensitive passages from previous posts, hence the icon.

yes, that is what i was referring to here: veal is made from unweaned "milk calves" not old enough to have much muscle. indeed it is very expensive because the yield per animal is so small. some calves are killed older, but their meat is sold as "big veal" - less expensive, less tender as they have by now developed more muscle from roaming.

wow. i read this three times, and only now did i get the point: eating dairy foods (milk/cheese/butter) kills male calves. i don't think that is the case here but i will have to investigate now. the veal market is ample despite its expense. foodwise, dairy is toughie for me because i love milk and cheese but both increase mucus production and are not really conducive to vocal recovery. they are also fairly complete foods although one must have grain.

unfortunately not just the babies, but in all kinds of farms the animals have been found to treat animals unkindly - overcrowding etc. those i was informed of were in the US, via an ASPCA newsletter i think. i have not heard of any in this country... lots of pastures here, but you never know. worth looking into. there are callous people worldwide who will do anything to make a buck.

that's COOL!

~ waves ~

hmm. with a b12 supplement. you can't get enough b12 from a vegan diet. it depletes very slowly because it is stored in the liver, but deficiency can appear after several years.

also, what is unfortunate is all agricultural areas, fresh and salt water on this earth are being contaminated - by pollutants, by radiation, by fertilizers, by improper cultivation methods (lack of cycling leads to barren land). some of the toxins take decades to dissipate. even "organic" foods are not immune to a compromised irrigation system.

still, some toxins also pass into animals that eat them, and into us when we eat the animals. plus, when animals are given antibiotics, we get a good shot of those too and it compromises our system by creating resistance in bacteria we may be exposed to, so regular antibiotics are ineffective.

in europe the use of antibiotics on farm animals seems looked down upon. sick animals are separated from the others and killed but not butchered. exposed animals are quarantined to ascertain they are safe. i was inundated when i arrived here by derogatory comments on how the food (animal and vegetable) in the US was only "bigger and better" because it was injected with hormones antibiotics and artificial coloring. well i couldn't argue, but i used to retort promptly that probably it was the same here. well it seems it is not. if some farmers do it, they are a minority. i do believe the use of hormones is actually illegal. i am not sure about antibiotics but they are not well looked upon. i think even in the US there must be some consciousness-raising about this, and perhaps things can change.

-------------------------

for me to be vegan/vegetarian while living with my parents would be extremely difficult. had i been when i moved in, or even better when i moved here from the US, i probably could have pulled it off. but even then it would have been difficult. as it is, i eat more meat than i would like just so as not to .... make ~ waves ~ sometimes, because there are too many ~ waves ~ already in this household. i don't want to go crazy about things you know.

anyway, at least have accepted that i will not have other meats, and they know, from my once in a while rise-to-pulpit speeches, that i think we have much more meat than necessary in our diet. i remind them of how much (little) they had in the war and the fact that they were not malnourished then, and suggest to them that their current habits are a reaction to that time period... that they eat meat now because the rich did then, and now every body "can" so, they "can" ... but they do not need to. this is not so much because i want to persuade them to change their habits, but because i want to remind them that i am less meat-inclined and that it is not an absolute nutritional necessity.

this is exactly what happened to me when i stopped eating meat - only it went gradually - medium cooked red meat, any red meat, light meat, dark poultry, poultry breast... until finally i could tolerate no meat. i was minimizing before. smell texture and taste, all three.

i just had a left over chicken thigh for lunch (they are having the famous "leftovers" for dinner and the chicken will go off by tomorrow. misunderstanding about the "leftovers" so i ate the chicken up but i am trying to get the taste out of my mouth.

for dinner i am going to make myself a baked potato with broccoli tonight... with a little cheese on top. or just bread and indian pickle (mango, carrot, lime mix), if the little store where i get it is still open after therapy, because i have run out of it. my parents cannot stand the smell of it (pungent spices esp. fenugreek). that is one problem i have with preparing my own food... i often use asian spices and they are not appreciative of the aroma. i don't mind it hanging around even for days! but my dad doesn't like those foods, and my mom doesn't like anything at ALL lingering, and breaks out the air freshener! UGH splutter!! ptthhhht.

you have several issues... will you hit me if i say ... "on your plate." i can relate to your feelings about the planet and the animals. Still there are other factors. force of habit perhpas. But also, a desire for variety, and what makes this much much harder in your case are the chewing limitations. these are non-negligible! anything that goes down your gullet has to pass the tooth-test. no if, and's or but's.

that sounds good. when i used tofu i would not have meat at all. no point in it. sadly, i can't get the kind of tofu i need to make the kinds of dishes i used to. the only kind of tofu i can get here seems to be satin tofu, and it must be entirely consumed within 2 days. besides that, it is not found everywhere and is prohibitively expensive. since i am not paying for my own food.... well... it goes back to making ~ waves ~ Back in the US i used to use tofu crumbles a lot, or firm tofu which i would make either sauteed or sometimes just eat sliced in sandwiches. if you wish, i can send you some suggestions. i used to improvise a lot but i may have some written recipes (of my own creation).

i'm so sorry all this has caused such an upheaval for you, Mari. I have responded, because i said i would, and felt i should, and it felt ok and everything - so don't worry about me. But, it is ok with me if you want to leave the discussion here. That isn't to say 'don't respond' - i am ok either way. So, if this is now bothering you, then perhaps best we put the lid back on this ... dare i say it... can of worms?

I hope you are ok, Mari. Thank you for your support, however, I'm really sorry this thread upset you so much.

I will be back later... therapy. gotta get ready and leave the living room decent.

~ waves ~