Originally Posted by mg neck prob (Post 961472)

Hi Matt,

To answer your first question --again there is evidence shows shrinkage --but once proper medication and treatments are done the damge stops some cases possiby reversed .

To your 2nd question yes as well --but only if left untreated why because the affect on genes and the hormones levels like cortisol.

In depression, the body’s stress-response systems are going nonstop. Hormones (like cortisol) stream through the body The effects of this long-term stress response are devastating for the brain and the body. The body responds by increasing adrenaline, by elevations in blood pressure, by increased blood levels of sugars and fats.

The brain responds by having its alarm systems in an always-on. The amygdala, the brain’s panic system, actually grows in size! The hippocampus, the brain’s center of working memory, and the prefrontal cortex, the area of planning and memory do shrink. Chronic depression is very toxic for your brain.

DD is also toxic for your body. People who are chronically depressed are at greater risk of heart disease, diabetes, osteoporosis, and many other medical problems. Nobody knows exactly why this atrophy occurs. Neurons may die or shrink, or ones that should have been born to replenish the region may not be. Whichever, it does seem linked to a stress hormone called cortisol, because about half of seriously depressed patients secrete too much cortisol.

After meication and reduction in cortisol levels saw their brain chemical return to normal, cell growth and restart and the hippocampus return to its pre-depression size.

This in hippocampal volume loss in depressed humans could possibly be prevented by anti- depressants.

Originally Posted by MattMVS7 (Post 961474)

I know that depression can occur due to cortisol, genes, and the overactive amygdala. But I'm asking about the shrinkage itself. Does the shrinkage itself lead to more depression if left untreated?

So my question is does depression shrink your brain or does a shrinking brain lead to more depression if left untreated?

Originally Posted by mg neck prob (Post 961478)

Yes it does . lead to more depression if left untreated

Originally Posted by MattMVS7 (Post 961481)

But now you said before that there is no one cause for depression (nobody knows what causes it). But you said that the shrinkage (this one cause) causes more depression if left untreated. So right now I am confused.

Originally Posted by mg neck prob (Post 961486)

I said alot more than them Matt --true but i referenced things known to cause it --live events,tragic childhood abuse,divorce illness,death,job stress,substance abuse---You need to understand test are ran from diffrent forms of depression chronic and related depression and both have the same effect on brain. The main thing is to reduce the stress.

Matt im really trying my best to help you but I also need to ask a question back-- what is your main objective here --from what i inderstand you suffer from chronic dd--is it that you think its not curable ???

Originally Posted by MattMVS7 (Post 961487)

I am having this troublesome thought that me having depression will shrink my brain and that this shrinkage will lead to me to even more depression (it is a thought that lasts all day everyday, and despite me putting all my focus into the things I want to do, the thought does not go away).

I am being treated though with medication. But even with this treatment, the depression from this thought still lasts all day everyday and am worrying about my brain shrinking, leading to more depression.

Originally Posted by mg neck prob (Post 961494)

Matt, I really appreciate you honesty !!! I had a feeling that what you may be thinking. I dont blame you at all for having these thoughts ---I honestly think between increase in physical activity --have your cortisol level checked . beefing up Omgea 3 in your diet and sometimes keeping a journal daily for you pdoc --your meds might need to be adjusted you have to be a big part of the equation on your road to recovery . No I dont think your brain will keep shrinking at all--- but I do you need to be extremly proactive. Treatment for depression is trial and error with peaks and valleys as Im sure you already found this to be true.

Originally Posted by MattMVS7 (Post 961501)

Thank you for your concern.

But now I wish to talk about this thought some more. How much of an effect does good medication have against the shrinking brain (am I losing more of my brain than gaining through the meds, or is it the other way around)?

---Its the other way around your stopping the damage and there as been studies it can be reversed with meds and possibly other treaments. ---

Also, as for the shrinking brain, could that be a cause of more depression for someone who is already depressed, but not for another depressed person?

Originally Posted by mg neck prob (Post 961515)

---hence like i said what came first the chicken or egg --

studies compared people with known depression and people with no depression on mri --which show strong evidence of shrinkage in the dd group--and other studies suggest strongly the brain shrunk even more with the group of people who did not seek out any treatment for depression .
That leads back to the gene factor and stress cortisol levels ---

Originally Posted by MattMVS7 (Post 961522)

Now is the shrinking brain just one of the known causes of depression, but for some people who are depressed, this shrinkage doesn't cause them more depression?