I quite agree that it a sad world when the patient knows more about treatment and their disease than the MD. What in the world did they go to medical school for? Is how a lot of it appears. But in defense of many doctors, there is a large part of the liability issue and people willing to sue at the drop of a dime and attack the only person willing to go out on a limb to help.

As far as the readily available information goes that many use to 'self-diagnosis' and find themselves superior to their doctors, only about a fraction of it is accurate information and many lack the knowledge to decipher the cause-effect studies from the statistical and correlation all studies, which is the most important distinction.

I can give endless statistical data, taken over centuries of time and tell you carrots are a health hazard, avoid eating them at all costs! After all 100% of the worlds population without prejudice to age, ethnicity or even exposure amounts, that have eaten carrots have died or will die! It is accurate and proven! (Of course the same is just as true and accurate for not eating carrots)

And there are countless statiscal studies out there which impart no further information than the above, it's simply used as a tool for researchers to begin looking further into the issues, it gets onto the net and patients wonder why their doctors haven't suggested treatment based on it.

Then you get the correlation studies which makes patients even more anxious in their 'self-diagnosis' because they appear to be scientific 'proof' studies. Increase of autism in children living within a certain range of power lines. Many take to say that living within close proximity of power lines causes autism in children. And it certainly appears so, given all the studies that have been done... But it's not taken as 'cause-effect'. Sounds ridiculous, but there really isn't anything to show that living within close proximity to power lines "causes" autism. It's a simple correlation.

And yet doctors can say definitely that cigarette smoking 'causes' significant detrements to health. Initially though, it began as a statiscal study, moved on to a correlation study, and finally became a fully tested 'effect'. Basically meaning they discovered the interaction of chemical compounds within cigarettes to its effect on human cells.

They may find it for power lines one day, but as yet have not. The medical field is a lot of guesswork, it is not necessarily a lack of interest on the doctors part, or failure to continue with their studies. And while they might not be that great at being questioned by patients, and might express frustration or denial when patients bring them 'facts!' about their diseases. They are generally confined to the 'facts' when it comes to the treatment of the here and now.

Though believe me, if a doctor misdiagnosis something 'easy', that is to say something with a definitive diagnosis, or prescribes a treatment that is inconsistent with 'accepted medical' treatments, then by all means kick them to the curb. If they're 'medically accepted' treatment isn't working, by all means challenge them to try something new, though expect to sign waivers and likely pay out of pocket for it as well as doing a lot of doctor shopping hoping to find the one who is willing to tie the noose around his professional career.

I believe in patients being educated, I love this technological world where any amount of information is just a click away. But information without understanding is no different than a three year old singing 'Hit Me Baby One More Time' on you-tube and calling them a prodigy. So before you insist you more know than your doctor ask yourself first, can you distinguish between 'cause-effect' and 'correlation' studies? Do you understand statistics? Biology? Chemistry? Physiology? Psychology? Immunology? And of course Neurology?

Sorry for the rant, and as one who is also frustrated with the medical field, though mostly with my own body, I do look for 'correlations' all the time being one of the first observational skills available to explain 'cause-effect', but I try not to criticize my MDs too much, though I also seek out doctors that are as curious as I am.

Long and short, find doctors willing to have an open dialog. Learn the difference between 'cause-effect', 'correlation' and straight 'statistical' studies, and come to accept that your doctor might not agree with everything you suggest as a possible treatment and might not have the time to fully explain the intricacies as to why . It is not ignorance or indifference on their side, but rather following some of the suggestions from 'correlated' research can be detrimental to your health.

And yes your doctor should be capable of explaining this, but consider the increase in 'self-diagnosing' patients, all who think they have 'the cure!' Or 'the answer! And the amount of time that could be spent pouring over all your 'information' and explaining all of them to you rather than spending that time actually treating you.

If you want someone with a medical degree and specialities in your area of problems to pour over the internet articles and helping you decipher everything, find a retired doctor who doesn't have ten or more other patients that day seeking care, answers and treatment as well. Or harsh though it may sound, go to medical school yourself and get into the field of medical research, since they're really the ones who decide the 'medically-accepted' treatments, that our doctors prescribe.

Hopeless, did you find a doctor from the TOS doctor list sticky??

Here are some TOS basics:

1. Don't sleep with you Hans at or above your shoulders.
2. Get a neck pillow to help support you neck.
3. Strengthen your rhomboids and back of your neck.

Just tell the doctors what you have, lol. Like somebody else diagnosed you. Then the doctors can excuse themselves while the go and google tos, lol!!!

Hi Eight,

Not sure where you got the impression that I suffer from TOS. (Maybe because my post under General Health has also been posted on various other forums so that others would see it.) I was speaking in generalized terms and not regarding a specific condition or illness. I did put "some" emphasis upon the field of neurology in my subsequent post.

But, thanks for responding anyway.

Hopeless

I have lived in several countries, and have experienced both socialized and private systems. On the whole, I prefer socialized medicine - but that doesn't mean it is without problems.

For starters, in Canada, successive governments have starved the system. Doctors have become more folks who RATION healthcare, than deliver it. Most people don't realize that GPs can only order so many tests, etc... Whether or not one gets a test may have more to do with quotas than clinical need. If you don't advocate for yourself, you will almost certainly be under treated.

We also don't have the same capacity to shop around for doctors. You're pretty much stuck with whatever specialist your GP sends you, too. Even if you switch, our doctors aren't competitors for clients, they're one big happy family - and they tend to cover for each other.

For me, the biggest problem is that many feel like they're doing you a favour by seeing you. "It's "free," so stop complaining." Well, it's not FREE, my tax dollars pay the doctors' salaries - but they don't think they work FOR me. There have been times that I would like to drop a big bag of money on my neuro's desk, so he'd realize that I'm serious about my medical problems. I'm love to be rich enough to go to the States and pay someone to at least be polite and pretend they care.

I do know more than any GP when it comes to CMT. And unless a neurologist knows CMT, I know more than he/she as well. I did not self diagnose. I've known about CMT since I was little (a long time ago) as it is in the family for generations. And I have seen the effects of it. My own symptoms did not happen until many years later. Thank goodness.

I am not self diagnosing - I do know what I have and have gleaned all the reputable information concerning it that is out there for years and years before we had the Internet. It was snail mail back then. And also anything reputable that has come along. They are doing much research on it as well. Just sayin' where I am coming from.

I do know there are plenty of other conditions where people are trying to self diagnose their problem. That, in itself, can be a problem.

My reply....

http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/post1080426-2.html

What is wrong with doctors?
It's a very big question and can be looked at from many perspectives.

It's a very long road to become a doctor.
It takes a lot of very hard work and sacrifice sometimes against all odds.
Keeping a healthy balance between study and work and having down time is often impossible.

Our hospitals have too few beds.
Our hospitals have too few doctors.
Our hospitals are caught up in political spin where the end result is that the patient is the loser.

I don't see it so much as a problem with doctors.
I see it as a problem with humanity.

As time has gone on over the decades, I've seen the shift myself.
I've seen the time pass when a patient was a person and not just a number.

Anyway, I could write forever about this question but instead I'll just leave a link for now...

What is wrong with doctors?

Media releases
BeyondBlue
Urgent action needed to improve the mental health and save the
lives of Australian doctors and medical students

I have lived different places too, but I encountered better quality in the private systems. I don't think either type of system inherently implies or precludes better quality. In terms of quality, physician attitude, attention, etc, I do see some of the *exact same kinds* of problems here with a socialized system as Hopeless describes, and as my friends have encountered in recent years in the US. (As MrsD mentioned about Vit B12... a friend of mine had that exact problem and his doc told him he was fine despite his fatigue and brainfog.)

Some problems really seeem to be more about the exercise of the profession itself.
Yeah, I hear you! (And it's not completely free here, either. The state imposes copays for some things. Specialist visits and labs cost more here than they did in the US through insurance. )

waves

Completely agree. Such well-balanced considerations.

The doctor is not automatically right, nor automatically wrong. Neither are we. When we encounter discrepancies wee must seek to resolve them by educating ourselves futher, sometimes obseerving more carefully.

Perhaps one of the things I've come to appreciate most are physicians who are really willing to "work with" the patients. Have you noticed how sites like WebMD and other patient information leaflets say things lik...
--- "Discuss your concerns with your doctor. He or she will work with you to determine which bla bla is appropriate bla bla"

Really??? Who writes that stuff and on what planet do they live? Discuss with a doctor? What a novel concept! And then he/she will work with me??? HA!

Most doctors I've met work on patients, some especially like to work over patients and some even work around them ... so very hard to find one that works with us.

Fortunately, a few do. And some of these actually listen without rolling their eyes when you tell them you read some reserach, or give you feedback on your ideas, etc. As doctors go, these are the diamonds we are mining for. I'd like to think that participatory medicine initiatives would increase the number of these professionals. Not sure I see that happening yet. We can hope, perhaps.

http://participatorymedicine.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participatory_medicine

waves

Doctors are not the only medical health professional that has the continuing education lack...it happens with pharmacists, and nurses, dentists too.

All of them have to keep up with new information, and treatments.

This is where I have my most criticism. Today on the PN board, we see doctors who do not know much still about PN... but PN affects more people than PD and MS combined. So school doesn't train them about CMT (Charcot Marie Tooth). What is stopping them from learning about it AFTER school? The new information for doctors is on the web now on a DOCTOR's website since 2003, about B12. Yet just about everyone who comes to PN here, has a doctor who thinks oral B12 doesn't work, doesn't know about activated B12s etc. This is only one example. Doctors continue to have poor understanding of nutrients because they didn't get that in school. So why don't they fill that gap on their own? I cannot comment about other types of doctors we see on these boards. But the numbers of PN patients falling thru the cracks of medicine are huge alone just for PN!

Perhaps the educational exposure for doctors actually turns off their own curiosity because of the heavy load school maintains. Once out, they just coast on what they have learned and don't maintain any further desire for learning--they have had ENOUGH? The teaching hospitals however, do seem to expose them to new ideas. But lately even they don't get high marks anymore. Consumer Reports has hospitals rated this month for heart surgery, and U of M Ann Arbor was last of a long list and only received a "fair" rating!
They used to be the "go to" place in Michigan!

And sadly it does all become about money in the end. Things are very expensive now. I had an echocardiogram a year ago... the bill was over $3000! My doctor was flabbergasted! That is just an ultrasound of the heart! $1000 was for an injection of a visualizing agent (which I didn't get last time 10 yrs ago) alone.
It was about 10ml of lipids only. It was called Definity.

This is where medicine is going.

So when you get numbness and tingling in your hands and feet,
or a nasty tendon rupture, don't expect much from your doctor. It might be from the drug he gave you last time for a simple bladder infection. (ooooppppsss sorry, he won't keep up on the toxicity revelations of Cipro or Levaquin, won't know your PN may be forever, and will ignore you and try to give it to you next time again!). So much happens to people today because of doctors.
The iatrogenic causes of pain, and disability are much higher than ever. And you are the one who has to learn and research what you want and need these days. You have to go where the physicians refuse to go.