[paula_w]

The Senate is scheduled to vote at 5:45 p.m. on ESCR expansion bills S.5 and S.30. Bush has hinted that he might not veto S. 30. Sen. Harkin thinks they are close to having the votes to override a veto of S.5.

The debate and vote can be viewed on C-Span II.

paula

[stevem53]

Paula..I got a phone call from Senator Reed's office this afternoon, and I discussed S 30 with his health aide..He seems to think S 30 will not get the required votes to make it to the President's desk

Of course because S 30 is a bunch of misleading fodder, it figures Bush would consider signing it into law..But that is only predictable..

[paula_w]

Well how can they both pass? ... lol Bush should give us ESCR.....waiting 7 days to ease people's conscience by letting the embryo "die" a natural death first before using them is no different than using them in the first place. Now the logic is getting ridiculous.

Banning it all, including in vitro fertilization and abortion would be taking a solid stand - I could respect that strong of a stand in someone. But this waiting for the embryo to die before using it is still causing the embryos to die. What's the difference? Because of this silliness we lost votes for S.5 and probably can't override a veto.

paula

[paula_w]

Here is the logic that we let our lawmakers get away with:

• Embryos are created and destroyed for in vitro fertilization.
• S.5, which expands ESCR to all in vitro extra embryos that would only be thrown away- passed. It had already passed the House.
• S.30 also passed the Senate yesterday, which allows ESCR with the extra embryos after the embryos "die" naturally, which means stop dividing (I think).
• This bill (S.30) hasn't been voted on in the House yet so it has to go back to the House.
• S.5, which is only different in that it uses the embryos days earlier for research when they are most viable, will probably be vetoed by Bush.

The American public has been hoodwinked again. I don't know the definition of hoodwinked, but I think it's similar to bamboozled.

I could use words much worse,
Paula

[stevem53]

This S 30 was a deliberate move to hoodwink the public..Im not surprised..I hope that bill..(S 30)..gets defeated in the house

Nothing is right or wrong anymore..Everything is political, and it sucks..What these boneheads dont seem to understand is, that when we get to find out whats behind that door through ESCR, there will be something for everybody

[vlhperry]

Hang on there,

In the 18 years I have lived with PD I have been listening to promises made by ESCR researchers that if they only had a little more money they would have a cure in five years. That is how successful hard science has proven to be. The Adult stem cell research has several uses to help people with cancer and numerous other illnesses.

It reminds me of the old Aesop fable about the Fox and the Grapes. The fox keeps jumping for the highest clump of grapes on the tree, believing they must be the juciest. The fox ignores the grapes within his reach because if they are too easy to attain, then their value must not be as good. This is not hard science, but hurt pride at being proven wrong and the determination, no matter what the costs, to be proven right.

After patients have had embryonic stem cells placed in their brain, with limited to no improvement, and private research done worldwide for over 18 years with no results to help even one person, why do you want to keep throwing money at a research that has not one proven positive result?

With the research in genetics and Adult stem cells producing proven cures, it makes sense to put the money where research is giving results.

Best Regards,
Vicky

[paula_w]

Vicky my debate opponent,

IF adult cells were that successful we'd all be cured. Yes they seem to work ok for some blood diseases. But their supporters are just not accurate when they say that there are that many uses for adult cells.

Sen. Brownback shows Dennis Turner, Dr. Levesque's one and only patient, and calls him healed. That is just not true. Dennis Turner has slipped back down the slippery slope because Dr. Levesque has had a very hard time getting funding. He never had his other side done and the first one is wearing off.

Vicky, I have learned many things in the ten years I have been on the Internet. Sadly, one of them, is that the truth is not the first priority in Washington DC. Pro life does not provide accurate information.

What I don't understand, is why all the senators that voted for S.5 also voted for S.30, like Harkin and Kennedy, big S5 supporters. That puzzles me. Better than nothing? I didn't realize they could vote for both. IT ties it up till it goes to the House and expects them to wait till the embryo "dies".....absolutely senseless. To me this is obsessive compulsive behavior. Are scientists supposed to sit and watch it divide for the last time?

paula

[vlhperry]

Dear Paula,

Adult stem cell tissue only was one of the fields I mentioned. What about genetics? What about Ron's theory of the damaged blood brain barrier? Or Everett123 theory of the intestinal tract? ESCR has been worked on for at least 20 years promising a cure. It is time to stop listening to the old promises and start supporting research that is new and innovative. Personaly, I beleive Ron and Everett are on to something.

One of the studies done posthumorously, showed that the Parkinson brain had a 100% higher amount of nitric oxide than all the normal brains examined. Nitric Oxide is in the air all around us. Our own bodies produce it. If Ron is right, and the study showing that Parkinson brains have higher percentages of nitric oxide than the normal brain, or a person's genes causes a person to create too much nitric oxide, then toxins in the form of pesticides could get through the blood brain barrier and damage neurons.

Before we can fix the disease we must understand how it happens and why everyone experiences such different symptoms. Perhaps it was some other cause besides nitric oxide which damaged the Blood Brain Barrier. Perhaps it was a different toxin for different people. There could be hundreds of combinations. This could explain why everyone is affected so differently.

If the cause is a damaged BBB, then melatonin or something stronger could be made to reverse the damage to the blood brain barrier.

Vicky

[Todd]

This will be a departure for me from my usual posts but I'm a bit frustrated today, so...

The facts are that adult stem cells have not cured disease as the anti-ESCR people claim. They have been mostly successful in regards to blood-borne diseases, but definitely not neurological. And even in those areas where they have had some success, their success has been limited at best.

Again, if adult stem cells, or cord blood stem cells, etc. were successful, we'd all be somewhere else and not on a disease board. We'd be cured and out living our lives. And every person with PD, cancer, spinal cord injuries, juvenile diabetes, MS, ALS, etc. would be lined up for this "supposed" cure. Funny thing is, I don't see that happening.

And if you do see it, please tell me where so I can get in line. Because if I don't get there right away, then I'll end up having to "take a number" and it will be a high one and I'll have to wait forever. Besides having PD, I have a bad back too, so standing in line really sucks. Thanks.

It's interesting to note that every major disease organization in this country is in favor of ESCR and S.5. Every single one. PD, cancer, heart disease, spinal cord injury, you name it. Again, if adult stem cells (or other stem cell variations) were the answer, they'd all be there instead. But they're simply not.

Personally, I don't know if ESCR is the answer and I don't claim, like some do, that it's the cure we're all waiting for. But I do believe that the only way we'll ever know is to truly take a look at what science hypothesizes and see if they're right or not. And the best way to do that is with government support and guidelines. They can throw more funding towards ESCR by accident than the private sector can on purpose. Plus, this would be a case where having "big brother" watching would be a good thing.

Science has had almost 30 years to look at adult stem cells and they haven't worked as well as they thought. It could very well be the case for ESCR as well, but we won't know until we try. And the actual truth is, true ESCR has only been going on in the US for less than 10 years. They only figured out how to manipulate them the right way between 1998 and 2001.

All your top researchers will tell you that the main problem with adult stem cells is that science cannot figure out how to developmentally regress those cells to make them work as needed. Until they figure that out, which they've been trying to do for years, we're basically going nowhere. And fast. I like going fast, but I don't like going nowhere, especially when I'm going there fast.

The whole argument, to me personally, is silly and hypocritical at best. It's "morally okay" to toss embryonic stem cells in the trash but it's not "morally okay" to instead let science take a look to try and improve the lives of millions of people, utilizing cells that are destined for the trash anyway. And seriously, how do you think invitro fertilization clinics came about anyway? Um...through ESCR. But I guess that's okay because we're just tampering with God's will and creating artificial babies where God didn't originally intend them to be. Interesting.

I guess I have to give that one more thought. It's okay to create life where there wasn't supposed to be one (if you believe in God I guess) but it's not okay to take "lives" that are going to be tossed (destroyed...killed...?) into a medical waste dumpster and instead try and improve the lives of millions of people suffering from incurable diseases. Might have to sleep on that one.

Or not.

Medical science has, since the beginning of time, engaged in controversial acts in order to improve the human condition. People yelled and screamed then, for hundreds if not thousands of years, just as they're doing now. But along the way, millions of lives have been saved because of science, like it or not. Just go look in your medicine cabinet or the shelves of the local drug store. Pretty much all that stuff was tested on humans, and not always with favorable results. Yet there it is in your cupboard. Just go look. Seriously.

And don't get me started on the stuff going on in hospitals across this country. Treatments, medicines, experiments, off-label uses. Scary, scary stuff. But necessary if we want to save and improve lives. Between a rock and a hard place I guess. It's an uncomfortable place to be for sure.

Not that long ago, a doctor told someone that he wanted to take a heart out of a dead man and insert it into the chest of a dying man in order to save his life. Everyone freaked out. Yet today, we applaud transplants of all kinds. If it's controversial, then wait! We don't like it! But once it benefits us, well then put our name on the waiting list 'cause I want one too!

But people argue that by utilizing ESCR we're destroying a life to save another. All depends on your personal point of view. And whose point of view is right? Or wrong? Or not even close? Your religion? My religion? His religion? Her religion? No religion?

Medical science does this every single day in hospitals all around the country yet no one bats an eye. For example, just walk into any oncology hospital and witness the "experimental" treatments used on children suffering from cancer. I saw it daily, as I used to work with those kids and their families. Brutal doesn't even begin to describe it.

But because we have an undefined cell in a petrie dish headed for the trash, it's all of a sudden a big thing. Why? Because it's an easy argument for a lot of people. It's a undefined cell. In a petrie dish. Frozen with dry ice. Like that famous baseball players head. Really.

I want a cure. I hate having PD. And if that means using embryonic stem cells destined for the trash to see if they hold the promise science thinks they might, then I'm all for it.

I want to believe that those opposed to ESCR have prayed and thought long and hard about their position. But I fear that simply isn't the case. If you watched the recent debates on TV, the Senator from Alabama (during Senator Brownback's testimony for S.30) clearly showed his ignorance in his testimony and understanding (or clear lack thereof), and I find that pretty scary. No, wait, I find that seriously scary.

There's so much mis-information going on from both sides. What is the truth? How do we find the truth? Maybe we should just stop arguing and move to more important things, like which quasi-celebrity will be kicked off the next episode of that horrific reality show that our Jerry Springer influenced America has come to love. Please.

As for me, I have thought long and hard and prayed and begged and pleaded and I believe that by supporting ESCR as defined in S.5 that we're taking a negative that's currently happening (tossing embryonic stem cells into the trash) and attempting to turn it into a positive by looking for answers to diseases that millions of us suffer from. But that's just me.

Oh, and all the major disease organizations.

Oh, and anywhere from 60-75% of Americans depending on what recent poll results you read.

Oh, and the millions suffering from PD, MS, ALS, spinal cord injuries, juvenile diabetes, etc., etc., etc. and their families and loved ones and friends and...

What's a guy with PD to do anyway? Off to take more drugs I guess, and enjoy the side effects while I'm at it.

Thank you and good night...

Todd
PDTalks.com

[paula_w]

Todd that was so very well stated - straight from the heart backed with what we know to be accurate information. My back was just diagnosed with being very diseased with arthritis and multiple herniated discs from L1 to L5. I am in constant pain and combined with 18 years of PD, gets me downright ...well rather I should say...forces me down. I agree with every word you said.

Vicky, I agree with what you said too. There are other possibilities and I'd still take pump infused GDNF. I'm all for researching the blood brain barrier. Whatever works.....give me something that works.

paula