Here is an updated link concerning "Moderate Drinking" which to me seems insane. If I drink only 6 light beers over 6 hours, for one day of the week - often drinking water in between, and then this link below declares that 4 beers a day is moderation!!! - I seriously have to wonder what's credible as far as accepting the terms of moderate and heavy drinking. I would think anybody drinking 4 beers a day is an alcoholic! IMO.

http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/Hea...110565592.html

I think you will find many conflicting definitions. These change quickly as new studies come out.

What is at the heart of the issue is your NEED to have the drinks.

In your first post you capitalized "non-alcoholic neuropathy" for a reason. But in reality, your doctor cannot make that diagnosis because there are no tests to illustrate his point. It is only his opinion.

PN is strange...it will flare, go down, change, worsen or get better.
Sometimes it takes a combination of factors to see one of these changes. Once the nerves have been damaged, they seem to tend to be more fragile IMO.

I can get a flare from MSG in foods. I can get a flare from weather changes and Low pressures moving in. I can get a flare from red wine. I can get a flare if I am very upset. If one or more of these are present the flare is bigger, or lasts longer.

In essence no one here can advise you as to your alcohol consumption. You are going to do what you want in the end anyway. Keep in mind a flare may be a day or more delayed...which makes dietary identification difficult for many people. The dopamine reinforcement of the drinking, may delay your perception of any effects for a while. Dopamine is the feel good neurotransmitter... and when it wears off, is when people start to feel "bad". This is why people who are alcoholics don't feel their PN until days/weeks after they stop drinking. It is a very disappointing shock, but they do mention it here.

I drink occasionally myself. Distilled filtered quality vodka does not seem to affect my feet. But wine sure does! But that is me.
I do not drink socially, and I take my own, tonic, iced tea, or water with me to family affairs. Hubby brings his own, Diet Pepsi, since he is sober now for a decade. (there is alot of drinking on our vacation among the cousins, so we just don't partake and no one says a word.) We actually enjoy the conversation better.
I tend to get sick easily on alcohol... very sensitive stomach etc, so I dilute the little bit of vodka with ice water when I have it at home. I drink much less since I retired, too.

I am sorry your kittie friend passed away. I hope you get another when you are ready. Last year at this time our little Houdini was lost... we never found her. There was a brief rally in Oct that turned out to be another cat who looked like her. I was just thinking of her today...in fact.

I'll repeat the PharmaGaba suggestion I gave you before. It might help you out stress wise. I used the PharmaGaba last year during the Houdini crisis and it really helped. I just started Hubby on it 1/2 dose, because he gets anxious before our long complex trip upNorth. (5 weeks) We have to take stuff up there, including 2 cats, and all the special food etc. Books, my art supplies, household needs. We are on an island far from stores, so we go prepared. I just made a big Amazon order yesterday.
PharmaGaba is new and not like other Gaba products....The others don't work well orally.

This is the one I use...
http://www.amazon.com/Nutrigold-Phar...rds=pharmagaba
Some of the other brands are way too expensive.
I take 200mg at bedtime. It lasts completely thru the next day.

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It's weird I guess - when I drink vodka, I do notice some slight irritation, but that might also be from the stuff I mix it with. Wine I can't stomach very much at all. This is why I stick with lower alcohol Light beers when I do drink.

I don't think I NEED the beer. What I NEED is to be calm and happy. The beer, just offers a temporary doorway to that. Honestly, what seems to be the theme here, is that drinking in moderation is doable if it doesn't flare up our pn. Even the PN center websites say this.

The debate is what is considered "moderate" and which drink is the best tolerated by each of us?

In my case, my pn was diagnosed by three different doctors from three different hospitals and with another extra evaluation.

There is no doubt by me or my physicians that Cipro was the cause (although they blame me for mixing it with NSAIDS & Benzoz)

Basically they tell me that despite my urologist saying it was fine to take Naproxen with it (he even wrote me the prescription) that it was my responsibility to know not to mix Clonazapam, Naproxen and Cipro.

I was Like, dude, how the heck was I supposed to know that!? I trusted this doctor and I got very hurt because of it. BTW, that is why I'm so paranoid about taking things like the A L Carnitine (I'd love to see the article about it helping the thyroid -it would put my mind at ease) and such - just still paranoid about what I put in my body, I guess.

I asked if I may have gotten pn from alcoholic consumption, but they told me that my drinking history was not even close to causing it. Further more, they said it would have come on gradually, not suddenly, as it did when I was on the Cipro treatment.

One doctor told me it would be astronomical that my pn was NOT caused by the Cipro and that he'd seen the same exact thing happen to someone else. But unfortunately, his predication that it would fade out in a few weeks was wrong. He was an ER doctor.

I've noticed that ER doctors seem more truthful and candid than primary doctors in general, but I don't really know why this is.

Now, although they disagree on my prognosis, they ALL believe my pn was caused by mixing Cipro, NSAIDS and Clonazepam...Ironically the very things I was prescribed by my urologist to take together for my prostate infection over a year ago.

This was indeed the very first diagnosis I was given when I went to the ER for the first time - he even took the wrapper off of the Cipro bottle and pointed out where it warned about peripheral Neuropathy in these very tiny letters. ...I felt like a fool for not noticing it -I'm usually so attentive of such things.

Since then, I have improved dramatically, but still not healed completely. One doctor says I'll never heal completely - my other neurologist says "According to my rate of healing, I'll either be healed completely or nearly so within another year.

Back to the subject; I upped my beer intake from 4 beers to 6 after I got off of the clonazepam. This was also after my sister had passed away and now even my cat had been run over and left in the street like garbage. (I gave it a great and caring burial though)

Also about the guy who says he smokes weed to ease his pain: I don't know much about Marijuana, so I'm sorry if I misjudged users of it. To me, if it helps you without harming you, then it's alright in my book. It might not be for me, but I could see how it could help others.

I'm inclined to agree with you, and thanks for posting the link, because it illustrates one of my points very well. It helps to consider the source of anything we may read on the web. Potsdam is well-known as a "party school" (though it's no longer making the lists. I know, because I went there ). The article was written by a Sociology professor -- not a medical doctor. His audience is primarily made up of students, whose standards of what constitutes "moderate" with regard to alcohol consumption are quite different than the general population. All in all, knowing the town and the school, I'm inclined to regard his definition of "moderate" on the liberal side.

I think that's laudable.

We do whatever we need to do, short of things we know will be harmful in the long run. I posted a link to lots of articles of ways & techniques. They don't all work for everyone, which is why I posted the search. We all have to find what works for us.

Best wishes,

Doc

Smith -- Do you think that drinking 2/3 beers every day is better than drinking a 6 pack in one day? I would think that the alcohol build up would be worse, where as the one day scenario would at least give you time to detox it, (in fact, an entire week before your next drinking episode) especially if you drink a lot of water in between and afterward. -- Curious about your opinion on this.

It sounds like you are doing a lot of thinking about what is best for your health. Lifestyle changes are really hard, having a diagnosis that affects your daily life is hard. I grew up in the type of family that did a lot of weekend drinking and drinks were always there for every celebration big or small. Taking a step away from that culture isn't easy. With my meds, I only imbibe occasionally and in much smaller amounts.

I am impressed that you were able to wean yourself from the meds that you did. I have anxiety as well, not helped at all by this crappy sensorimotor neuropathy thing I seem to have now. I was able to get my Clonazepam down to 0.5 mg at night from 2 mg. When I tried to go down from the 0.5, I just could not handle the extreme jerking at all hours. I felt defeated that I couldn't wait it out. I am on sertraline 50 mg. & amitriplyline 50 mg. also at night. I sleep like a baby (no wonder, right?) My anxiety has been cycling higher lately, and I don't think I would like to see myself without these meds to help.

So, yes, we all have our ways we handle stress.

I don't think either one is a good idea for anyone with any kind of drinking problem, or people on certain kinds of medications, and I would (and do) stray on the side of caution with PN and certain other medical issues. Not singling you out here -- it's a blanket statement.

That said, the difference is that the former is moderate drinking; the latter is binge drinking. I also don't agree with your analysis. In moderation, the alcohol is assimilated & metabolized. With binge drinking, the liver has to work much harder, and enough alcohol is being consumed to build up and cause deleterious effects.

Regular Drinking vs. Binge Drinking

I think you're actually lucky in a way because you know (with reasonable certainty) the cause of your PN. Somewhere between 40%-60% of us (depending on the source) don't. It's been with me for... a few years now, and I've had to learn (like a lot of folks) by trial & error, and a lot of reading, what works for me that I have to keep doing, and what aggravates it that I have to avoid or pay the piper. I deal with stress in pretty much the same ways as I did when I drank (socialize, hobbies, recreation) except that now alcohol just isn't part of the equation. So what? Family & friends still drink -- I even have some beers in the house for them -- just not me. I quit caffeine for a few years too, and as it turned out (to my own surprise) I missed caffeine a lot more than I ever missed the beer! I'm drinking coffee again, but in comparative moderation, and it doesn't affect my PN. Things like sugar and hot spicy food raise hell with my PN, and those were a lot harder for me to give up than either beer or coffee. Giving up chocolate was one of the hardest things I've ever done (and I would KILL for some hot Mexican food), but my PN is under control, and considering the other medical crap I deal with on a daily/hourly/continual basis, life is still worth living.

Ultimately, the choice is yours whether to drink or not, and how much/often. I used to drink, so it's no skin off my nose. I don't have to live with you, your PN, or your spouse -- you do.

Doc

First off, consider adopting a new kitten. That will keep you busy! LOL There are so many languishing in cages that will be euthanized if not adopted. I love playing with our new little Maya... she is really fixated on TOYS... and she has learned quite a bit of language too.We adopted her upNorth on vacation last summer. We are trying to keep her inside...as she is so scaredy about things. She won't do well outside I don't think.
We only let Weez out during daytime. She is learning to come in each night now, and that makes it easier for us. (I reward her with a food treat each time she comes). Weezie seems to stay around the house as we have lots of chipmunks now to occupy her. She also catches shrews.

I couldn't live happily without cats. Each one is so unique.

Here is a link with a cat research story that is very interesting.
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/thread190000.html

And ginnie is on that thread explaining the rescue of a very tiny kitten, that she is doing, and intends to adopt.

I also have a new Weezie photo on both my profile and album.

I find overall that green tea daily helps too. I switched from black tea to green tea, because of my angioedema. The green tea blocks bradykinin receptors. I use one by Bigelow --green tea with mint. It seems to settle me well too.

That truly is an interesting product - especially in light of the topic.

I know I'm not supposed to answer here ( ), but GABA-B receptors play a big part in alcoholism. One of the medications that are being tested and shows real promise is ... an old medication called baclofen. I'm guessing PharmaGaba works on the same receptors? Baclofen is known - at high dose - to create an indifference to alcohol. It doesn't work for everybody, and there can be serious side effects, but it has been a life saver for many. France officially endorsed the use of it in alcoholism treatment just a few weeks ago.

So maybe your link is worth a closer look by some of our members...

As for the diagnose ALCOHOLIC NEUROPATHY (for some reason this seems to need all-CAPS, but that's not the only reason why this topic bugs the living ***** out of me...), in my case it went:

"Do you drink?"
"Yes, too much actually."
"Oh, than you have alcoholic neuropathy."

No tests (apart from a blood panel), just my word for it. The fact that I had been low in B12 for a long time most probably due to taking antacids for many years played no part.

But.

Somehow this is seen as a "totally different type of neuropathy" by the OP, and I wonder why. Like alcoholists (I have no problem with the term, it's a neat rubber stamp, right?) are some kind of aliens I suppose...

Anyway, I think the point is that the causes of neuropathy are not the same as the elements that create more discomfort once you already have it. Nobody here got neuropathy from eating too much Mexican food. But many can now not eat it without serious consequences.

Alcohol is mildly toxic (especially over a longer term, where it becomes a toxin), a depressant (forget feeling better through drinking, you'd be the first human for which that works), and it messes with your perception of pain. You might well actually feel less pain while drinking - as already explained by Mrs. D. But catch up it will. Ouch.

I think Mr. Smith explains it correctly: you learn to listen to your body, and avoid stuff that makes you feel worse or you know will harm you longer term. How much you drink, and if that is alcoholism or not, is totally irrelevant. Just like there is no "chocolatism"; if it hurts or harms you stop consuming it.

You can not fret about things like Acetyl L Carnitine or B6 (BTW, beer contains a LOT of B6 ) and then somehow convince yourself that alcohol will probably not harm you. That just doesn't make sense.

Anyway, yeah, a kitten (Mrs. D., one of our cats is called Houdini too!) or... a dog might be a much better plan. You can train the dog to fetch you things, it will force you to get out of the house, and if you bring it up properly you have a best friend for life, who feels exactly when you feel bad or are in pain (our two labradors certainly do...).

Your resident alcoholic,

Wide-O

Yes, I've seen the baclofen data. They have to use really high doses though, and baclofen is very difficult to discontinue. So I prefer the more gentle approach with the PharmaGaba. Hubby quit with no help. He does substitute chocolate for the alcohol though.

There is another issue with alcohol craving and dependence, which involves anxiety problems as symptoms. It is called Pyroluria.
Here is a good link on it:
http://www.drkaslow.com/html/pyroluria.html

This is more well known in Europe, but people in US are now finding that they have this too. It is hidden, and not tested for by doctors here.

I've met some people online over the years who tested positive for this...so it is real!

If you are interested, you can Google for more. Basically it involves a genetic error in heme production in the liver, making a byproduct called kryptopyrrole, which then complexes zinc and B6 in the blood making them unavailable for use in the body.
Providing these two nutrients with medical supervision, can correct this. I've seen estimates that up to 25% of people who become alcohol dependent (craving it) really have pyroluria and can be treated.

So it is not an easy task to deal with alcohol on so many levels.
It takes determination, and a precipitating event often to provide the momentum to actually do it.