Will A Shrinking Brain Cause Me More Depression?
 

I experience chronic depression everyday and it says from a countless number of sources that depression shrinks the brain.

They say that this shrinkage can cause even more psychiatric problems. This information disturbs me and I wish to know that if in the future my depression gets worse, is it due to the fact that my brain has shrunk (for example, the shrinking of the prefrontal cortex)?

And will this shrinkage cause me even more depression? Has it been proven that brain shrinkage will cause you more depression if you already have chronic depression?

[Hi Matt !!

I been reading on the shrinking brain for years in humans it corelates to many conditions yes depression is one but read this below stress in major factor and there are supplements you can take to help.

Stress and depression can shrink your brain by blocking the formation of new nerve connections, finds a new study in Nature Medicine.

Researchers analyzed the brain tissue from dead people and found that five genes--each one playing a role in communication within the brain--were scarce in the tissue of people who suffered from major depressive disorders.

Instead, the depressed people's brains appeared to have an excess of GATA1, a "genetic switch" that when "off" basically stops the genes from communicating. In turn, that lack of communication leads to a loss of brain mass in the prefrontal cortex, says Ronald Duman, Ph.D., senior study author and professor at Yale University.

And the biggest cause of that GATA1 overload? You guessed it: stress.

When your body encounters a stressful situation, it releases stress hormones. These hormones then trigger the excess GATA1, leading to a loss of connection in the brain, Duman explains.

To test their findings, the researchers exposed a group of mice to chronic stress and found that GATA1 increased significantly in the stressed-out rodents.

Duman hopes his team's research paves a promising pathway for new depression treatments. In the meantime, the best thing you can do to prevent your brain from shrinking is manage stress well, he says.

One quick fix: Stock up on omega-3s, since they help reduce stress. In 2011, Ohio State researchers wrangled 68 medical students for a 12-week study. Half took a 2,500 milligram daily dose of an omega-3 supplement--equivalent to the amount in 4 ounces of cooked wild salmon. The other half took a placebo. Omega-3 cut reported stress levels by roughly 20 percent compared to the placebo group.

But is there proof that I as a person will become more depressed due to the shrinking of my feel-good parts of the brain?

Or is depression much more complex in that even if you do have shrinkage of those areas, that it won't lead to more depression?

I think it more complex depression period. Its possible but not totally proven.There are so many things I really think there touching on not only depression but with other things and I do believe with treament it has to done on multi disciplianry approach. Just like most disease its not that simple. Truth be known like most illness ---example like cancer-- many theroies --no real known cause,wether partially genetic or enviromental or behavioral ---nobody knows for sure and there is no one size fits all cure either. I think of depression much the same ---its definitley not hopeless disease-- its finding the right meds that work to help control it and working with good pdoc ---but no matter what like any illness --the minute we accept it --then we start the journey to recovery....no matter how long we have symptoms. There wouldnt have forums like this if there were easy asnwers to diseases--were all searching to get better and improve .Its about us trying to be are own advocate by educating ourselves and getting support and it comes from seeking knowledge. I think your on the right path by just coming to this site. If you decide to stay Matt I think you will find many in your shoes and alot of support coming your way....they have many in the medical field on this sight and many patients ...and some just will be here just for emotional support.

So, for example, one part of my brain could shrink through my chronic depression (the prefrontal cortex), but that shrinkage won't cause me to be even more depressed (due to the fact that depression is so complicated and that there is no one specific cause for a person to be even more depressed than he/she already is)?

Matt its a theroy that has not been proven---there alot info that contridicates studies done by ucla and yale and few other i cant think of at this time. Remember the brain shrinks in the same areas as we age there studing have been for MS patients parkinson,alot of neuro diseases.Thats why I gave u the cancer reference alot of theroies nothing written in stone

Thank you for helping me with these questions. I'm just having things on my mind in asking them.

Now about this information that contradicts these studies, is there info that even contradicts depression causing brain loss?

Also, the brain shrinking through aging is a fact. But is it a fact that the brain shrinks through depression, or is that not proven either?

While this is an important issue for short-term health, it may also be important for the longer term, because there is some evidence that depression shrinks the brain — no, it is not the psychiatrists who are the "head shrinkers!" — and that antidepressants might put the brakes on this process.

While much remains to be sorted out, one of the key players in this story might be "neurogenesis," or growth of new brain cells.

Just two weeks ago researchers reported in the journal Science that they had devised a method, based on an imaging technique called magnetic resonance spectroscopy, that could detect new cell growth in the brains of living people. This raises the possibility of being able to monitor effects of antidepressant treatment on neurogenesis in patients.



Hitting on the Hippocampus

The hippocampus is a seahorse-shaped region of the brain found on both the left and right sides, buried a few inches in from the ears. It has a critical role in memory and is part of the connected circuit of brain regions called the limbic system that generate and regulate our emotional lives.

The results of more than 20 studies now strongly suggest that the hippocampus is smaller in patients with major depression than in people without illness. The average difference is about 10 percent.

So the hippocampus is smaller in depression. But does a small hippocampus cause depression or does depression shrink your hippocampus? Some evidence suggests shrinkage occurs.

Scientists began pursuing this line of research after Robert Sapolsky, a Stanford neuroscientist, suggested that chronic stress might unleash a cascade of stress hormones, which over time might kill hippocampal cells. There have since been several studies that have shown that hippocampal size in depression correlates with the length of time a person has been depressed.

Another study has shown that hippocampal size correlates with the amount of time a patient has had untreated depression. Consistent with this, the good news is that evidence suggests depression treatments can block the pernicious effects of chronic stress on neurogenesis, reactivating growth of new brain cells.

Two studies have in fact reported that antidepressants can increase hippocampal size.

Matt --so to me this part is the key below --in my oppinion to your questions.


Growing Your Brain

The size of the hippocampus varies from one person to another regardless of depression, much like height and foot size vary. Several studies indicate that genetics determines about half of the size variation in the hippocampus.

so yes depression is assoc with a smaller hippocampus--but delayed treatment shows might be assoc with further shrinage--and the study shows antidepressants have been shown to stop fuether shrinage.

I know that antidepressants help grow new brain cells, it's just that I have questions.

So will just the hippocampus shrink during depression, or the prefrontal cortex, or both?

From what i understand and reall think the hippocampus does but the only evidence suggest less activity in imaging done of the prefrontal cortex not really shrinage would be the term I would use-- less of activity shown in images scanned --which i believe trying to make this little more simple my oppinion --it comes for from a BDNF gene that has been assoc with a smaller hippcamous --that gene belongs to a family of genes that infulence brain growth ---stimulating it will help from getting worse (not only meds other therapy like tms) and stop damage ---this is what im trying to explain there is no simplified answer --u have to understand more of the the genes the stress hormones and all diseases and aging with the brain. Im sorry there is no clear answer Matt im trying the best way I know how to explain. Some is more proven in parts and like i said its not written in stone. But studies showed damage can be prevented to me which would be my main objective.

Now I think one more question I have is that has it been shown that depressed people can have few genes responsible for brain loss (meaning, that even though he/she is very depressed, that he/she isn't going to lose much of his/her brain)?

Thats correct!

But are there depressed people with none of the GATA1 genes that result in smaller brain mass in the prefrontal cortex? Or are these genes necessary to survive?

No we all have these genes --we must have them for survival.
This is why I say it gets complex---bdnf --gene is found in more than the brain -- however its s secret protein or nerve growth for the brain. Its about increase these level of bdnf---low level indicates in other disease as well ocd,alheimzers,hunnington and dementia ---this is where i indicated before the studies in depression decrease in the bdnf gene to the hippcampus to shrink --hence stress and depression decrease expression of bdnf. taking anit dep meds,exerise,other therapy increase its level of the bdnf level.

Even the GATA1 gene we all have as well (the bad gene that was stated in that article you posted to be responsible for brain loss in the prefrontal cortex)? I'm sorry if it seems I'm asking the same questions, it's just that I have things on my mind with this.

Now it stated in that article that a loss of brain mass in the prefrontal cortex occurs. But you said that there is evidence that just a loss of activity in that area occurs and not a loss of brain mass in that area (shrinkage). Therefore, due to this contradictory information, is it unknown if a loss of brain mass occurs in that area through depression?

Like here it says that this shrinkage is known to occur in depressed people (the 5th paragraph of this article):

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...ink-brain.html

But as stated before, you said there is information that contradicts this. And again, leading back to the question of is it unknown whether this shrinkage actually occurs in depressed people. I do have chronic major depressive disorder, and is there information out there that even shows people who have major depression have a normal sized prefrontal cortex or even a bigger one? Again, just wanting to learn in asking these questions.

The size of the hippocampus varies from one person to another regardless of depression, much like height and foot size vary. Several studies indicate that genetics determines about half of the size variation in the hippocampus.

so yes depression is assoc with a smaller hippocampus--but delayed treatment shows might be assoc with further shrinage--and the study shows antidepressants have been shown to stop further shrinage.

its like what came first chicken or egg .

the brain shrinks for everyone 1.9 % every 10 yrs then 1% every yr over 64 ---here the point yes it plausable in a larger % of chromic depression that the area of the hippocampus shrinks but seems to stop once medicated most eveidence appears it comes from the stress hormone released that does this damage.

white matter --is composed of nerve fiber

grey matter is made up of cell bodies

what has been studied in people with know depression and changes in brain images of people changing going thru dramatic life events --divorce,illness ,loss of job ,death of love ones --show shrinkage-- after these events--- where before areas were larger ---then it led me to ? if its just the way depressed ppl brain is like if ur born with it-- if thats the case why does it stop or changes with medication. That why i think it complicated. It not the same like a brain shows perm damage as it does with alheimzers or huntingtons .

And then you have people like me who pickled their brain for years before they got "it" and got sober! LOL Talk about killing brain cells!!! LOL

Lee--Thanks for your humor (lol)

Now how do you know that it's possible that a person can experience more depression in his/her life through the shrinking of his/her brain if it hasn't even been proven?

Do we even know that it's possible that someone can experience more depression through this shrinkage?

Hi Matt,

To answer your first question --again there is evidence shows shrinkage --but once proper medication and treatments are done the damge stops some cases possiby reversed .

To your 2nd question yes as well --but only if left untreated why because the affect on genes and the hormones levels like cortisol.

In depression, the body’s stress-response systems are going nonstop. Hormones (like cortisol) stream through the body The effects of this long-term stress response are devastating for the brain and the body. The body responds by increasing adrenaline, by elevations in blood pressure, by increased blood levels of sugars and fats.

The brain responds by having its alarm systems in an always-on. The amygdala, the brain’s panic system, actually grows in size! The hippocampus, the brain’s center of working memory, and the prefrontal cortex, the area of planning and memory do shrink. Chronic depression is very toxic for your brain.

DD is also toxic for your body. People who are chronically depressed are at greater risk of heart disease, diabetes, osteoporosis, and many other medical problems. Nobody knows exactly why this atrophy occurs. Neurons may die or shrink, or ones that should have been born to replenish the region may not be. Whichever, it does seem linked to a stress hormone called cortisol, because about half of seriously depressed patients secrete too much cortisol.

After meication and reduction in cortisol levels saw their brain chemical return to normal, cell growth and restart and the hippocampus return to its pre-depression size.

This in hippocampal volume loss in depressed humans could possibly be prevented by anti- depressants.

I know that depression can occur due to cortisol, genes, and the overactive amygdala. But I'm asking about the shrinkage itself. Does the shrinkage itself lead to more depression if left untreated?

So my question is does depression shrink your brain or does a shrinking brain lead to more depression if left untreated?

Yes it does . lead to more depression if left untreated

But now you said before that depression is complicated and that there is no one cause for depression (nobody knows what causes it). But you said that the shrinkage (this one cause) causes more depression if left untreated. So right now I am confused.

I said alot more than them Matt --true but i referenced things known to cause it --live events,tragic childhood abuse,divorce illness,death,job stress,substance abuse---You need to understand test are ran from diffrent forms of depression chronic and related depression and both have the same effect on brain. The main thing is to reduce the stress.

Matt im really trying my best to help you but I also need to ask a question back-- what is your main objective here --from what i inderstand you suffer from chronic dd--is it that you think its not curable ???

I am having this troublesome thought that me having depression will shrink my brain and that this shrinkage will lead to me to even more depression (it is a thought that lasts all day everyday, and despite me putting all my focus into the things I want to do, the thought does not go away).

I am being treated though with medication. But even with this treatment, the depression from this thought still lasts all day everyday and am worrying about my brain shrinking, leading to more depression.

Matt, I really appreciate you honesty !!! I had a feeling that what you may be thinking. I dont blame you at all for having these thoughts ---I honestly think between increase in physical activity --have your cortisol level checked . beefing up Omgea 3 in your diet and sometimes keeping a journal daily for you pdoc --your meds might need to be adjusted you have to be a big part of the equation on your road to recovery . No I dont think your brain will keep shrinking at all--- but I do you need to be extremly proactive. Treatment for depression is trial and error with peaks and valleys as Im sure you already found this to be true.

Thank you for your concern.

But now I wish to talk about this thought some more. How much of an effect does good medication have against the shrinking brain (am I losing more of my brain than gaining through the meds, or is it the other way around)?

Also, as for the shrinking brain, could that be a cause of more depression for someone who is already depressed, but not for another depressed person?

---hence like i said what came first the chicken or egg --

studies compared people with known depression and people with no depression on mri --which show strong evidence of shrinkage in the dd group--and other studies suggest strongly the brain shrunk even more with the group of people who did not seek out any treatment for depression .
That leads back to the gene factor and stress cortisol levels ---

Now is the shrinking brain just one of the known causes of depression, but for some people who are depressed, this shrinkage doesn't cause them more depression?

Matt i promise i will respond soon but i have to go someplace right now

Matt ---its the shrinking brain is seen on MRI with people with known depression. This is the part---it was was compared with people with known depression vs people who did not suffer from depression.

The shrinkage may cause more depression without treatment.

Key point is it can be stopped even reversed with treatment.

dear matt
 

I have been reading your posts and there is only one thing I can say that has not been said and this comes from a person that has sufferd from deppresion and other dissorders yes your brain will shrink from some dissorders,but you streesing about it well not help you much all I can say is to exersise your brain and yes my speeling stinks sorry about that.but like any other musale if you don't exersise it it loses mass and I'm sorry but there are no easy answers to these problums even docs.don't know much and what works for one will not always work for all,try not to stress so bad it's not good for you:hug:

Hello Matt
 

I have been following your post, and so hope to help just a little bit. I have depression too, and know that the brain may shrink. But ya know what, I fill that space that may be hurting with other things. The brain has a remarkable ability to use other areas, that are not so effected. Stress about this will make you obsess. Heck as we all get older, the brain does its thing. I fill myself up with books, and that is no joke. I read obsessivly, and it takes my mind to a better place, some adventure, some new idea. I believe this makes up for any deficiency that presents. I am also bi-polar, I refuse to give into it, and seek the help when I need it. Try to change your thinking. By changing your thinking, you are going in a more positive direction. The more you think about negative stuff, the more you worry, and it gets to be a never ending cycle, that magnifies over and over again. This change of thinking is by no means easy. When you find yourself doing this, recognize it for what it is, and force yourself to think about some other subject, and how you might fill in what you believe may be missing. The brain is a really cool organ Matt. Neurons, can go all over the place, and re-route, bypass a trouble. Look at Abby who was shot in Arizona....Her brain is making up for the bullet that hurt hurt hurt her. That kind of determination will give her the recovery she needs and wants.
If you have a hobby, go back to it, try reading, try being social and join some activity. Even the YMCA has things to do, that most anyone can do. It is not expensive and meant for public use. Hit the library, release your worry. We all will be here for you. I get and need the same kinds of reassurance as you do. I run back to NT all the time for help. If I let myself think that my depression was shrinking my brain all the time, well I would just have a peanut left, and ready for some psych ward. I am better than that and so are you. Your brain is fine Matt, fill it with all the good stuff you can. It will improve your mood, and you will feel better about the whole thing. It will OK Matt, trust your brain a bit OK? ginnie:hug::grouphug:

I really am trying my best in life and trying to ignore this thought by focusing on getting better with treatment, but this thought still keeps on bothering me anyway.

This thought is that if you have depression, will the shrinkage of the hippocampus cause you more depression? Since the hippocampus is responsible for the creation of new neurons and sends those neurons off to the feel-good parts of the brain (as well as other areas of the brain) and that too much cortisol kills these newly created neurons in the hippocampus, will that cause more depression?

Or even if you have untreated depression, does the hippocampus even play a role in depression and that even if it were to shrink, that it won't make your depression worse?

Finally, is it debated by many scientists that if you have untreated depression, that a shrinking hippocampus (atrophy of the hippocampus) will even make your untreated depression worse and that if it even plays a role in depression at all (arguments against the hippocampus playing a role in depression)?

Hi Matt
 

I believe our brains can adapt. Depression can be treated, and so can anxiety over it. Keep thinking in a good way and not obsess over what may or may not happen. If my brain got smaller over the depression in my life, right now mine would be the size of a peanut!!!!!! I get help from my doctor, and take some medications for it. To me that is the best answer. Talk to your doctor Matt, and see if you can get some more help. I do care. ginnie:grouphug:

[Matt --I will say I will say this personally I believe that a big part of depression is a stress related disorder.No-- i dont think its 100% proven continued atrophy.


What is known or proves is the hippocampus that atrophy is seen after known major depression.

I also know that CRF is known to be the main culprit in depression. That stress will increase the crf levels that will damge the hipocampus.

so what do we know for sure ????

stress increases the CRF levels--and that will damge the hippocampus.

stress will also decrease the BDNF and that the nerve cells will lose its ability to produce certain chemicals ---and that depression will follow.

Matt there is no solid study known that known to meassure the BDNF in the hippocampus.But---what is known is about the CRF levels and stress--- is known --is there links --btw a smaller hippocampus-- and known depression. Factually even if patients did not feel better for months on meds ---what is proven that antidepressants helped it re-grow hippocampus.

Personally all is really known is ---CRF is bad for your brain --that Bdnf is good for the brain--- taking and comlying to meds are good as well. Benefits of exercise and mentally and physically show benefits too.

Now my 1st question is that I heard that the hippocampus regulates mood (it inhibits the stress response). Are there scientists who argue against this (a debate)?

Now my 2nd question is that in this link it states that atrophy of the hippocampus will cause depression. So is that wrong or debated as well?

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-...depression.htm

In response to your first ? yes--its not clearly esablished but its the two therioes strong indicate it. Problem is people with FIRST known depression doesnt show shrinkage in the hippocapus, so the theory is shrinkage has to happen over time.Then its studies that show treatment stopping and reversing damge in long term or chronic -- depressed people.


In response to your 2nd ?--yes it debated but the strongest belief or theory of studies suggest the shrinage is more likley effect of the depression rather
then the cause.I dont blame u having a hard time wrapping your thought around this like i said from the start-- nothing is clear or written in stone.

But what if you already have depression, is it still strongly believed (theorized) that even if you do have depression, that the shrinkage of the hippocampus during depression isn't likely to cause more depression--it's just a result of the depression?

No but it does show learning and memory deficits --and all the physcial symptoms due to possible cortisol problems i mentioned in previous post.