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BJ 05-18-2009 06:53 AM

Homework from Tdoc
 
I want to ask your opinion about something that my tdoc suggested that I do for homework this week and that I thought was a bit crazy.

Like a lot of survivors, I have a big problem with shame and self-loathing ... it is something that is very deeply felt for me and is a big part of who I feel I am inside, and it causes a lot of difficulties for me in my day-to-day life.

My tdoc and I have really tried hard to shift the self-hatred and shame that I feel, and slowly I feel that things are improving, but at times, stuff happens in my life that causes these self-loathing feelings to rush to the surface, then things are just so excruciatingly painful for me that it can be very difficult to keep going.

In my session last week, I was talking to my tdoc about my feelings and fears about taking the CPA exam and some other issues I’m having at work, and a question she asked me ended up triggering the shame and self-loathing feelings.

She asked me to bare with her, that she was going to suggest something that may sound really weird and crazy, but that may just help me "change my relationship" to these self loathing feelings, and minimize the power they have on my life.

She asked me first to think of all the things that this shame and self-loathing tells me ... i.e. - all the thoughts that pop into my head when self loathing is very strong. After some time, she asked me what some of them were, and I told her.

Then she asked me to think of a nursery rhyme or a jingle that both she and I would know. I felt stupid at that one, and when I didn’t say anything, she suggested "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star", and I said I knew that one.

And then - and this comes the really weird part - she asked me to put the words of shame and self-loathing to the tune of Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, and to sing it with her!

Now I was horrified and embarrassed by all of this ... and when I just drew further and further into myself to escape from the situation, she started to lead by example and used some of the things that I had told her that go through my head when shame is really strong, and she started singing those words to the tune of the nursery rhyme!

Now I can’t begin to tell you how horrible this made me feel. I think she was aware that I wasn’t finding this idea very helpful, but she explained that people have certain negative "schemas" that they develop from a very young age and that continue to affect them ... and that through putting the words of something very painful to a nursery rhyme, you can change your relationship with these "schemas" / ways of thinking/feeling about yourself, and not let them have so much power over you.

She came up with this task just before the end of the session, so we never really had time to talk about it too much ... but she did give me homework to work on my "self loathing song" and that she and I would continue with it next week in the session.

Now am I the only one who feels that this task is incredibly insensitive and dismissive of something painful that a person may feel so deeply? I don’t understand how my tdoc would think that this task could be helpful for anyone who has been traumatized in the past and has left over 'baggage' (for want of a better word) from those experiences. And I can’t believe that she suggested a task like this for ME of all people, when she knows that shame and self-loathing make me feel so incredibly self conscious, and then to put those feelings into a song!

I am just beyond horrified right now ... but I wanted to get your thoughts about this before I consider writing an email to her telling her what I think about her idea.

Mari 05-18-2009 07:45 AM

trust her
 
Hi,
It's ok if you don't like the idea.
And it is good to ask her about it.
But so far she has been good to you.
And her idea might work when you are ready to try it.

There could possibly be lots to gain from her idea.

My tdoc might say something like that too.
My tdoc thinks it is good to look at something differently than how we have been looking at it.
She says we need to grow new pathways in the brain. And she says we really can do that.

It seems that your pdoc is trying to take away the power of the shame that you feel. By putting it into Twinkle Twinkle Little Star you can make the shame manageable. Is that kind of what she is talking about?

I don't think that your tdoc is making this up as she is going along. Ask her if she has used this before and if it worked.


M.

mymorgy 05-18-2009 08:33 AM

I agree with you BJ. I am Jewish but right now I am thinking of the song Jesus loves me this I know for the Bible tells me so.....Somehow i think shame and self loathing can only be eradicated through faith...and maybe forgiveness of the other. It is so hard being bipolar. Our defense system is so weak and we feel so strongly....i wonder if we do get in touch with feelings that are buried deep within all of us and are part of facing how imperfect we are.
Bobby

waves 05-18-2009 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BJ (Post 511668)

She asked me to bare with her, that she was going to suggest something that may sound really weird and crazy, but that may just help me "change my relationship" to these self loathing feelings, and minimize the power they have on my life.

She asked me first to think of all the things that this shame and self-loathing tells me ... i.e. - all the thoughts that pop into my head when self loathing is very strong. After some time, she asked me what some of them were, and I told her.

Then she asked me to think of a nursery rhyme or a jingle that both she and I would know. I felt stupid at that one, and when I didn’t say anything, she suggested "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star", and I said I knew that one.

And then - and this comes the really weird part - she asked me to put the words of shame and self-loathing to the tune of Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, and to sing it with her!

Now I was horrified and embarrassed by all of this ... and when I just drew further and further into myself to escape from the situation, she started to lead by example and used some of the things that I had told her that go through my head when shame is really strong, and she started singing those words to the tune of the nursery rhyme!

Now I can’t begin to tell you how horrible this made me feel. I think she was aware that I wasn’t finding this idea very helpful, but she explained that people have certain negative "schemas" that they develop from a very young age and that continue to affect them ... and that through putting the words of something very painful to a nursery rhyme, you can change your relationship with these "schemas" / ways of thinking/feeling about yourself, and not let them have so much power over you.

She came up with this task just before the end of the session, so we never really had time to talk about it too much ... but she did give me homework to work on my "self loathing song" and that she and I would continue with it next week in the session.

Now am I the only one who feels that this task is incredibly insensitive and €ve of something painful that a person may feel so deeply? I don’t understand how my tdoc would think that this task could be helpful for anyone who has been traumatized in the past and has left over 'baggage' (for want of a better word) from those experiences. And I can’t believe that she suggested a task like this for ME of all people, when she knows that shame and self-loathing make me feel so incredibly self conscious, and then to put those feelings into a song!

I am just beyond horrified right now ... but I wanted to get your thoughts about this before I consider writing an email to her telling her what I think about her idea.

I think i might feel it as dismissive also BJ, so i understand, but i also don't think that was the intent at all. but i will say, someone taking up and singing MY horrible feelings to a nursery rhyme would feel horrid and insensitive to me. on the spot, i would probably cover up and giggle about it... then i would leave and hide and cry miserably and feel misunderstood and abandoned... then i would become very angry. i would have felt violated. in any case, my reaction would be very bad, though it might not be seen in the immediacy or on the surface.

perhaps this thing is premature and i think it would be good to let her know there that you were hurt by her action - if you can identify the feelings you have about her behavior, be specific. she does need to understand your sensibilities to help you better. she may know you well, but she is not not clairvoyant and certainly fallible... this time she perhaps went past where you were ready to go.

i do think also that you may go through horrible feelings if/when you yourself do this exercise... it may feel belittling of the feelings... as part of the reprogramming.

my advice is to attempt the "assigned" homework to the extent you are able, and when you stop being able, write down the feelings that stopped you. that is as good a homework as any for therapy. if you feel unable to even start it, then writing out your feelings is it. your response to this technique is important even if initially the response is one of rejecting the technique itself. but do spend time understanding the rejection, if you do.

as for email... do you feel you need to speak up to her right now? if so, go ahead with the email, otherwise, perhaps just talk to her about it first thing, next time. if you email to get it off your chest, be sure to focus on how the idea feels belittling of your feelings, but try not to ascribe to her an intent of belittlement - of you, or of your feelings - because i really think the intent was that of neural reprogramming. our brains certainly do create new neural pathways all the time. it is the only way we are able to learn anything or remember anything.

it is unfortunate it came up towards the end of session and you did not get a chance to get into it more at the time. that happens to me sometimes and those are hard sessions - they feel unfinished. then again therapy sometimes would require an untenably long session... so... well, that happens. :o

:hug:

~ waves ~

p.s. have been meaning to post on your success thread for a long time... but get sort of stuck in the mud every time. perhaps i will do it in spurts, as there are different parts to things i would have to say. anyway i will try.

BJ 05-18-2009 06:30 PM

I know my tdoc has recently been to a workshop about this sort of schema thing, as she has previously told me about an example where all the participants were given a task to think of something that goes through their head and that holds them back from doing what they want to do in their lives, such as "I'm never good enough" ... "I'm a bad person" ... "I'm a failure", and that sort of thing. And so at the start of the workshop, she told me that they had to write one of these statements on a sticker, and they had to wear this sticker as a name tag! So people had name tags on their shirts that said - "Tom - "LOSER" ... or "BJ - "FAILURE" and that sort of thing. At the time she told me about this, I remember thinking that I could NEVER do that, and wear as a name tag a thought or feeling that was so painful and deeply felt! So I am thinking that this nursery rhyme task came from the same workshop.

Lately as soon as I walk into her room and she asks "How are you today?" I just burst into tears. Not sure where that comes from, even if I had a not so bad week, I get in there and I cry.

She asks what is going on, I tell her nothing really happened this week, went to work, went to PT etc, nothing major, no trigger. Yet I cry like I’m traumatized.

I have been trying to avoid all trauma work/memories right now because it is busy time at work trying to catch up after tax season, but it might be coming through somehow. Not sure how to make the crying stop though.

I don’t believe I could tolerate doing this task without feeling majorly self conscious and humiliated. And I still can't figure out how this is going to help the shame and self loathing very much.

This is all so confusing sometimes. I am sure she just thinks I’m a hopeless case.

Mari 05-18-2009 06:40 PM

Dear BJ,
Don't do it then. This is totally up to you.

She threw something out that she thought would work. You can let her know that it is not going to work -- certainly not right now.
She will need to come up with something else.

I kind of understand the theory or her thinking behind it. Maybe it is a good idea for some people, but you don't feel that it is right for you. Your feelings are important.

Excuse me while I rant a bit in your thread:
She said that she had to do the sticker exercise at the workshop and apparently did fine. Hello?!!?!
Is she in treatment for serious major life stuff like you are? It doesn't compare. :mad:

As long as you keep talking to her and keep telling her what you are thinking, she will keep working with you. Don't worry about her.

Sending you hugs.
I know that when I hear about something that is supposed to help me and it sends me backwards instead, I can get depressed and feel like progress is hard.


Remind yourself that you have indeed made great progress.
Mari

BJ 05-18-2009 08:36 PM

I do want to try and be a bit more flexible and open about this sort of a thing – she has been so good for me, and I probably should have a lot more faith in her. But then again, she is also telling me that I am in control of the direction of therapy, and will know what is right for me and what isn’t. And I just don’t think this is right for me, not now anyway.

I don’t want to be a coward about this ... and I don’t want to let her down. And it definitely would be much more comfortable to live my life without carrying the heavy burden of so much inner pain, shame and self-loathing wherever I go. But it’s humiliating repeating the words that I’m supposed to be putting in the back of my mind right out there and to the tune of a nursery rhyme that is supposed to be child’s play. This is real, this is painful, and it’s not a game. My head hurts just thinking about it.

Twinkletoes 05-18-2009 09:24 PM

Awwww, (((BJ))).


I have been known to write lyrics from time to time, but would also find this assignment very difficult. Good luck to you.


You are very brave to post about your challenges. :hug:

Mari 05-19-2009 12:09 AM

Dear BJ,
I think you need to talk to her again.

Ask her to explain the purpose of it.
Her little song reminds me of how good it can be to make strong words / feelings loose their power over us.
This sounds similiar to what she is talking about. If you put the words in a child's song, then you change places with the feelings the words represent and you can have power.


But there are other ways in therapy for her to do this.
You can maybe come up with your own game to claim your own power.
Let her know that you do not choose to use her song / game.

M.

Dmom3005 05-19-2009 12:11 AM

BJ

I believe if its meant for you to do it you would do it! Without a qualm,
without much thought. YOu are a much different person than when
I came in.

I also believe that if you could do just a small amount of this it might
be a good thing. But also you might be able to give her a phrase
of the nursery rhyme or another to explain why your not ready yet.

And she isn't letting go yet. You are in charge of your growth, thats
how I think of this.

Donna

BJ 05-19-2009 07:05 PM

I must have gotten really worked up about this new technique of hers and have formed some sort of mental barrier to it. I’m trying to be open to this task. I know she often asks me just to "trust her" on some things that I get quite panicky about And although she hasn’t said to trust her about this task as yet, maybe I should be a bit more open to trying new things that may feel strange at first. Right now I can’t even think of a song and I see her on Thursday again. I’ve blocked a lot of my childhood out and have to find a nursery rhyme I remember. I have my self-loathing words all typed out but putting it to song is so hard.

This is why I'm afraid to doubt her, to not trust her. I was talking about some painful memories during the session that related to dreams that I keep having. Right at the end of the session I said to her "I don't know how to get this out of my head, it keeps haunting me." She looked seriously at me and said "I think you DO know, it's just whether you want to."

Did she mean express my emotions, or something else? I have a feeling that might be it. I didn't like to ask her and now wish I had. Her words made me shiver at the time.

bizi 05-19-2009 09:09 PM

When you see her next could you start where you left off and ask her to esplain herself?
((((HUGS)))))
beth

Mari 05-20-2009 04:47 AM

Quote:

Right now I can’t even think of a song and I see her on Thursday again. I’ve blocked a lot of my childhood out and have to find a nursery rhyme I remember. I have my self-loathing words all typed out but putting it to song is so hard.

Hi,
Wikipedia has a list of nursery rhymes from England and US. Only a few of them sound familiar to me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...mes_in_English
You could type them into Youtube to remember how they sound.

It does not have to be a nursery rhyme. It could be any goofy hop scotch / jump rope song or any song we learned when we were children -- like Jingle Bells.

You don't have to do all of this all at once.
One step at a time.

Remember:
You can wait until you see her again and talk about it first.
M.

Mari 05-20-2009 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BJ (Post 512482)


Did she mean express my emotions, or something else? I have a feeling that might be it. I didn't like to ask her and now wish I had. Her words made me shiver at the time.

Dear BJ,
I don't think that your tdoc said something on purpose to make you shiver.
She was probably trying to help.

But it seems that you have a lot of stuff hanging from the very end of the session. Does that happen often? -- that at the very end you get to stuff that bothers you the whole week?

Ask her to be more careful about that if it bothers you.

I like it when my tdoc kind of ends the session a few minutes early and then does a recap -- she summarizes what we have been over and gives me a chance to ask a question or reaffirm what we did.
Then I leave feeling complete for the moment.

But everyone has their own techniques and their own preferences.

M.

BJ 05-20-2009 06:55 PM

It's my fault we get rushed at the end of the session. I disassociate and then realize it's almost over and start talking. But she's always been there for me. If I get lost in something we're talking about, she doesn't leave me there - she knows how to pull me out and helps me to feel better/more stable. She reminds me that she is human and that she will make mistakes like everybody else.

She always tells me it’s not a negative that I am responsible for my own feelings and my own healing and that her job is to guide me. It is a positive because it gives me back the power that was stolen from me as a child
She's been more patient than I thought anyone could be and keeps working through the same fears over and over again.

If there is something painful to talk about, she tries to be very careful/gentle.

I really don't know what's right. I know it's supposed to be that you can say anything to your tdoc, and they will be ok with it and with you, but they are human, right?

And in some way I think this is not about her, it's about me trusting myself to share my experiences. But it IS about her -- she said it, it upset me.

I just want comfort, I guess -- not to feel so alone in my upset.

waves 05-20-2009 07:27 PM

the words that made you shiver
 
Dear BJ,

you are not alone in being upset by your pdoc. mine has upset me many times in the past. yes they are human. the important thing though, is to go back and talk about the upsetness openly. relate back the statement that hurt, and say ... what you said here... that it made you shiver. and what did she mean by that anyway?

you say you are afraid not to trust her... like if you challenge her, she might leave you? no. ain't gonna happen. nope. i'm not clairvoyant but i'd bet money, honestly.

in my case, there were some things that my therapist was taking too lightly - or appeared to. that or he was resisting them. it was VERY upsetting because they were VERY deep issues. also part of it, but not limited to that, were instances of taking calls in sessions. not always a problem, but sometimes very much so. now... i pained for weeks, cancelling appointments and not making new ones, on how to go about it. i felt it would be out of place to tell him how to run his practice/manage his phone! and to tell him i felt he was resisting a topic ... sure, i expressed it as my perception, but i was afraid to get stuck holding the "perception" ya know? and between the two, i was afraid of being abandoned, or told, take it or leave it.

when i finally talked to him, it was actually very simple. first, he confirmed his avoidant behavior. although unintentional, he said that i was deeply emotional when i came to that topic, and that he was probably not maintaining adequate internal distance; he admitted to feeling helpless. but he said that he hadn't realized how much it was affecting therapy, and he would work on that. i haven't had a problem with it since. as for the phone he said, oh does that bother you, i can turn it off. now, many of you reading may find it ludicrous for a pdoc to keep a phone on during session, but believe me, it cuts both ways - it is handy when you need to talk to him urgently but just briefly and he picks up when you call. and not all sessions are so intense as to not be able to handle the interruption. however, now, he sometimes asks me if he can take a call... i guess when he feels uncertain about my state. if we have "heavy work" on the horizon, he asks at the start of session if he should turn the phone off. sometimes - always if i show up in in bad shape - he just turns it off without asking.

in other words, yes, there were problems, and some were about him, but he owned them and did not abandon me, and adjusted his boundaries so he could help me better.

we have had several confrontations about several things over 5 years and, well... now we haven't had one in a while. but i still get times where he says something that leaves me perplexed... or scared... my mind goes places with it... and then i just go back and get clarification. it has always worked out positively. always.

i hope you will be as direct as you can with your counselor and i am willing to bet she will work with you. often, a simple clarification is all it takes. but it is important to make these "small" clarifications. they make your therapeutic relationship stronger.

good luck and :hug::hug::hug:s

back to my zoner-game so i can get snoozy soon.

~ waves ~

Mari 05-20-2009 07:28 PM

Dear BJ,
Do you feel safe when you are with the tdoc?
M.

bizi 05-20-2009 09:51 PM

I am so proud of you BJ,
THis is hard work that you are doing and you are worthy of this work.
Keep talking.....you are doing great.
(((((HUGS)))))
beth

Mari 05-21-2009 12:47 AM

Dear BJ,
 
Dear BJ,
Waves has wise words here.
It is good to kind of call the tdoc on what she is doing if it is getting in the way of your progress.


Quote:

Originally Posted by BJ (Post 512894)
It's my fault we get rushed at the end of the session.

It's never your fault about how the time runs. The tdoc can control the time. Maybe you can ask her to do a better job. Tell her what you need during a session and what you need at the end.
Talk to her about how you would like things to run. Ask her if she can do that for you. Once she realizes that you are aware of the issue/s and that you have a desire for change, she can accommodate you.

M.

BJ 05-21-2009 07:05 AM

I have a great deal of paranoia whenever I'm around groups, but I feel very comfortable speaking to my tdoc and pdoc because I know I'm safe. I know neither of them will judge me nor expect me to do something I'm uncomfortable doing. I see my pdoc for 25-30 minutes which is plenty of time to discuss everything I need to. I see my tdoc for 55 minutes which doesn't always seem like enough time, but it's better than nothing.

My tdoc is very caring,compassionate, and gentle in her mannerisms and her therapeutic approach. I like my tdoc a lot but she always harps on the cuts on my arms, and then we have to discuss it, and I get tired of that.

I know therapy is hard work and once you do feel comfortable trusting a therapist (pdoc or tdoc) the hard work falls in your lap. A lot of times I feel worse after leaving a session but that means that therapy is working and that I am working in therapy. But the wait in between sessions is the hardest especially when you’ve been left hanging. Issues that were brought up in a session last week eat at me and I obsess about one statement I made or wanted to make and didn't or a statement she made to me, like she did. Therapy shouldn't, in my mind, stop when you walk out of the therapist's office.

I also know that I should have therapy to deal with some of the long term issues behind the depression if I want to continue to get better and stay better...some long term issues can't be controlled by me, so no amount of therapy can help except maybe better coping skills. How do you manage to really talk instead of 'putting on a front' like most of us do in day to day life? How the heck do you stop once you get started? I sure don't want to let it out, just to find out time's up and I have to go home and try dealing with the emotions on my own...blocking things out sometimes is the only way I've had the strength to make it through some days during the last year and ignore desperate urges.

I've been up all night working on my nursery rhyme. I won't put it here but I was surprised how many times I used the word "fear". I see her this afternoon and I hope she approves and appreciates my effort.

bizi 05-21-2009 10:47 AM

I am sure she will be appreciate that you tried.
Fear is what is behind alot of peoples problems, I know it is one of my problems.
As far as what to do with your feleings when you have finished your session, perhaps you can go home and journal...then bring in the journal the next time yous ee her so you can start where you left off and gives you something to look at and begin so maybe you will be more present and feel more productive.
Ilike the suggestion about wrapping up a bit earlier and recapping what was said and done, maybe you could ask for that?
it sounds like you are getting overwhelmed with the big picture and not focusing on the here and the now, remeber it really takes one day at a time.
((((HUGS))))
beth

Dmom3005 05-21-2009 10:51 PM

Gosh I have to say BJ,

I personally find it wonderful that you have put this together. It was something you were having a struggle with. But you really worked through
the struggle and dug deep and kept up.

Way to go.

Donna

Mari 05-22-2009 12:51 AM

Dear BJ,

Congrats on your nursery rhyme. I know that you struggled with that all week.

It's common that people try to look and act better than they really feel when they are with the tdoc / pdoc. I think it is normal, considering we do that during the day when we have interactions with other people -- it is hard to switch that off.

And most docs can see through it -- so it is ok.

But it can be more helpful if you can be as honest as possible with yourself and the tdoc. It makes progress move along better if you do not have to spend emotional energy to cover up how bad things are.


Quote:

Originally Posted by BJ (Post 513090)
How the heck do you stop once you get started? I sure don't want to let it out, just to find out time's up and I have to go home and try dealing with the emotions on my own...

A few times with my old tdoc many years ago, I used to bring in an agenda (2 copies -- one for him and one for me) that even included how much time we would spend on each item.
That was my way of asking him to help me by making sure that we got to all the issues that I thought were important.

The last time I saw my current tdoc, I had a handwritten list of about 5 things that were a big problem that particular day. I read them to her at the beginning of the session. She made a comment or two, and then we went on to something else that we had been working on long term.

But most of the time with her, I do not mention the little weekly stuff. I don't need her help coping with my day to day stuff -- I use my sis or this board or something else for that.
With her, I jump right into what we have been working on and off for years. Sometimes she wants to slow down and go over the past week anyway.

Other weeks, she does not want to go over my daily / weekly events, but wants to stick to my main themes.

Do you bring a watch with you?
You are allowed to look at it. ;)
Sometimes some of us develop a pretty good sense of what 50 minutes is. I can feel when the session is going to wrap up.
Or I can look at my watch or a clock -- if she has a clock out on her desk.

These things that I mention are little practical matters. (We need a book about how to get the most out of therapy!)

The important thing is to be aware of your progress and to feel good about it. You will keep progressing.



M.

waves 05-22-2009 08:07 AM

time
 
Dear BJ

I have a terrible time keeping track of time when i'm in therapy... once i get on a roll... i tend to steamroll.:eek: my pdoc has a clock but it is not always functioning. i did the following for a while, then stopped because it seemed superfluous, but now i find i am back to ill-timing again, so it was not superfluous.

my cellphone has an alarm on it. my session is supposed to be 55 mins but he always runs 60. in any event i set my alarm to 10 mins before session end. that gives me time to wrap up, settle down - eg stop crying if i am, get scripts if i need them etc. you may need more time - like 15 mins... your choice.

i sometimes - like Mari - bring a list. especially if i have journalled during the week and there are "point items" - although my point items may well be part of whatever "big issue" we are on. also on the list will be anything critical that happened to report - eg mood change or major life event, and last but not least if i need scripts, labs, or other documentation.

if documentation must be left to the end since discussion is first needed, i might set my alarm for 15 mins before end of session. otherwise i get the docs out of the way at the beginning. i guess this is not such an issue for you since your pdoc is different person than your t - who is not writing scripts. well, i'm leaving it in, just for food for thought in general.

:hug:

~ waves ~

waves 05-22-2009 08:22 AM

Dear BJ,

i read about your having done your nursery rhyme last night... and just spaced out... wowww. well done. sounds like you have learned something from it already from seeing the word 'fear' repeated.

Remember, if you feel too uncomfortable singing it, tell your therapist firmly that you are not up to that. if she insists, perhaps you can ask to meet her half way and only sing a line. also, since they are your words, you might ask her NOT to sing them with you or for you. i don't know but i got the sense that HER doing that hurt worse than the idea of your doing it yourself. possibly because, if it were me, i would feel violated. so that is me, but if that aspect - her singing - felt wrong to you too, then make that a boundary, and ask her to respect it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mari (Post 513404)
It's common that people try to look and act better than they really feel when they are with the tdoc / pdoc. I think it is normal, considering we do that during the day when we have interactions with other people -- it is hard to switch that off.

And most docs can see through it -- so it is ok.

But it can be more helpful if you can be as honest as possible with yourself and the tdoc. It makes progress move along better if you do not have to spend emotional energy to cover up how bad things are.

i just think Mari had a very good point, so quoting it. highlighted the part that i consider the crux. how so exhausting it is to "seem." and with a t, it is not useful - with the outside world unfortunately, we do need to do that a lot.

Well done again on the Homework!

~ waves ~

mrsD 05-22-2009 11:51 AM

This is interesting....

I have read that rhymes and song melody are processed by the right hemisphere of the brain. When you put words into those formats the message goes to the emotional centers better.

It is thought that the non-verbal right brain is responsible for many lingering bad feelings. This technique is used for people with aphasia also.

A friend of mine who was a social worker told me that much of therapy is talking out loud, and thereby reprocessing thoughts and feelings which then have to go thru the auditory channels.
This makes integration faster. For example if someone is upsetting you, and you write them a letter, you should read it outloud to yourself, to defuse your disturbed responses. Many people find that after that they don't need to send a letter at all!
If you keep a journal, reading it out loud, helps the same way.

Females have some small amount of verbal right brain abilities whereas males do not. So I think your therapist was being very creative.

waves 05-22-2009 05:33 PM

BJ & Mrs D
 
BJ

this sounds hopeful. maybe you can give it a whirl. perhaps a line at a time. or jump in once and see what happens. anyway you've done a good job so far. Always keep sight of how far you've come! :hug:


Mrs D

if you can point me to literature (online or other) for further reading on what you have posted - sp. regarding brain lateralization / linguistics in females, music, right brain re-processing of negative emotions... any or all of that...

i would be really interested. thank you in advance! Feel free to PM or leave a visitor message if you prefer not to post, although i think others might be interested too...

~ waves ~

BJ 05-22-2009 07:17 PM

I don't really remember what happened yesterday. I know I didn't turn in my homework. I told her I need more time but I did mention that it had fear in it a lot.

She said to me "Do you know what the opposite of happiness is? No, it’s not unhappiness. Unhappiness is not a cause; it’s the effect of something. The opposite of happiness is FEAR!
I forget a LOT of my sessions. Sometimes later, I'll get a hazy memory and I'll ask her about it and she can tell me in more detail what happened. She brought up something I said and I don't even remember saying it.

Sometimes I want to know what happened in a session, so she'll sum it up for me (like on the phone between sessions or at the beginning of my next session). Sometimes I DON'T want to know, and she respects that.

It's hard for me to prevent it. I know that there have been times when I really want to stay present and I'll tell her that before the session and then if I start to drift away, she'll ask me to stay, or we'll stand up, or name things in the room, or switch chairs. It can be a lot of work.

I've asked her how I can know what I'm telling her if I don't remember. She said when I was ready, I would tell myself. That's kind of what has happened, I think...

bizi 05-22-2009 11:37 PM

I wonder if she would allow you to record your sessions with her?

Mari 05-23-2009 12:48 AM

Take notes
 
BJ,
I have taken notes in session -- esp at the end if we are doing a kind of recap before it is time to leave.

Or I go out to the lobby / car and write down what is on my mind -- only 30 seconds from leaving the office. Then I can journal on it at home.

My current tdoc was extremely disappointed when she found out that I am a note taker by nature but do not take many notes in her office. She found that important for some reason.

(Sometimes I think our memory protects us by letting us forget -- it's not completely forgotten, just in a different place and not easy to retrieve.)
So lately I do not spend a huge effort on my memory -- if I need something it will come back to me.



Mari

waves 05-23-2009 07:26 AM

BJ...
 
how do you feel about either recording the session or taking notes?

i have never recorded sessions... would feel odd being "on the air" in therapy lol, but i've heard one gets used to it. certainly that is the most complete way of preserving the contents of a session. you don't risk losing context as is possible with note-taking.

however, you do write well, so you might be a good note taker. an additional advantage to taking notes is that just the writing itself helps memorization... because you not only say things and hear things, but then repeat what is said/heard when you have to write it down or even rephrase it. this repetition, in the act of taking notes might be enough to help, even if you do not re-read them.

also, you could do both. and have the tapes as "reference" if you ever need to get a full picture, and doing notes to help you remember key points, and perhaps help keep you on track from session to session. when i take notes, and combine with journalling, i find it helps continuity from session to session immensely.

what do you think... and very importantly... how do you feel about doing either of these things?

~ waves ~

mrsD 05-23-2009 07:46 AM

Try these:
http://brainmind.com/RightHemisphereLanguage.html

http://brain.web-us.com/brain/lrbrain.html

These are not what I read years ago, but they are close.

I was reading alot of perceptual psychology back then when I was in art school.
So was interested in this subject. In order to do art, one has to learn to use the right brain or one doesn't get very far.

One book I enjoyed was Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain.
It is a classic now.

I also learned to use auto-hypnosis to improve imagery. Now I use this technique to help with pain control and anxiety.

If you Google using careful keywords you can find just tons of papers.

Cutting the corpus callosum to prevent serious seizures reveals alot of interesting things about the two hemispheres:
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neur...asiliadis.html
Quote:

Research was also done at the McLean Hospital by Fredric Schiffer MD, who studied two split brain patients. The McLean researchers studied the fact that each side of the brain controls the movement of the hand on the opposite side of the body. They devised a way for the left hand to answer for the right brain and for the right hand to answer for the left brain. Their experiment consisted of placing a row of five pegs in front of both the left and right hands of the split brain patients. These pegs represented a response, ranging from no response to an extreme response. The response was made by pointing simultaneously and independently with each hand immediately after the questions were asked. Dr. Schiffer observed that the left brain reported little or no anger toward a question asked about past bullies who had attacked him when he was young. But, his right brain was still upset about his early experiences. Another patient's two brains were asked questions about perceptions of himself. His right side perceived him as good while his left hemisphere thought he was insufficient. Dr. Schiffer and his staff found that each patient's right and left hemisphere seems to have its own opinions and emotions (6).
If you Google Roger Sperry and Michael Gazzaniga, their work is fascinating. I saw a Discovery show years ago about Micheal Gazzaniga searching for consiousness.

BJ 05-24-2009 08:44 AM

My therapist doesn't allow any recorders while in session. And she doesn't want me to take notes because it distracts from my being "present". That's my biggest issue, being present, staying focused. I simply freeze and go inside of myself because the subject matter is too hard to deal with. And then we have to take time to work through it and get me back to my safe place. It's so much work, it's draining.

Vowel Lady 05-24-2009 06:32 PM

A couple of things...
I do believe it is a good idea to take a few notes during a therapeutic session. For one thing, it will help you remember what was being discussed...even if you don't refer to it.
For another, you CAN refer to it if you would like.
If a session is missed (because you have to miss it or the therapist does), you can get your notes out and think about what was said the previous week and still work on what needs to be done.
Sometimes it is easy to stagnate. A few notes...a few memory jogs...can be helpful.

One of the links Mrs. D sites, mentions a book called Brain Rules. I really enjoyed this book...lots of good ideas and the author is funny too!

waves 05-24-2009 06:38 PM

Hi Vowel Lady
 
Is this the book you mean?

Brain Rules: 12 Principles for Surviving and Thriving at Work, Home, and School by John Medina

(above link is to amazon.com, for the paperback edition)

thanks

~ waves ~

Vowel Lady 05-24-2009 06:53 PM

Yes, this is it.
I saw other information by him once and his discussion on memory didn't seem accurate to me.
However, I did enjoy this book...lots of helpful tidbits on
learning
exercise
sleep
relationships

And his sense of humor, makes it easy reading. He makes many good points that can help the reader live a better/fuller life.

There is a good book out...I'm told...Musicphelia (sp?). I am starting to read it now. I don't know if the lessons learned there apply here or not...for those with interest in this topic...it might be a good book to look into.

bizi 05-24-2009 07:22 PM

looks interesting!
 
Brain Rules: 12 Principles for Surviving and Thriving at Work, Home, and School by John Medina

(above link is to amazon.com, for the paperback edition)


12 chapters:

1. Exercise-boosts brain power...number one thing that we can do!
2. Survival-the human brain evolved
3. wiring-every brain is wired differently
4. Attention-we don't pay attention to boring things
5. Short term memory-repeat to remember
6. long term memory-remember to repeat.
7. sleep-sleep well think well!
8. stress-stressed brains don't learn the same way.
9. sensory integration-stimulate more of the senses.
10. vision-trumps all other senses.
11. gender-male and female brains are different
12. exploration-we are powerful and natural explorers.

Amazon lets you read some of the book and it reads well!
I think I should order this book!
beth

Mari 05-25-2009 06:01 AM

notes again
 
Dear BJ,
A recording device during a session would distract me too.
Can you jot down notes (two or three key points) as soon as you leave the room -- even when you are still in the building? Would that help?

M.

Mari 05-25-2009 06:07 AM

John Medina
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bizi (Post 514550)

Dear Beth and Vowel Lady,

John Medina has some videos on Youtube:

Where memories go -- John Medina, author, "Brain Rules"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBsW5qz5sDU


The Brain Cannot Multi-task
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xO_oE...eature=related


Exercise - Brain Rule #1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck-tQ...eature=related


and more
M.

BJ 05-25-2009 12:34 PM

Thank you for the info and the Brain Rules and videos. I just ordered the book from Amazon. I hope it helps me not be so stressful about my memory problems. I know I definitely can't multi-task right now. :o

I will take your advice Mari and right things down as soon as I get in my car. It's easier said than done though because I feel so out of it when I get out of there, especially when she leaves me hanging, or worse, when I leave there in tears. She promised me I would never leave that way, so I wait until I get outside and let it out.


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