[Valleybob]

Hi guys, I'm getting a bit desperate in my search to heal faster so I signed up for neurofeedback. My appointment is next Tuesday.

Just wondering if any of you have a) tried it and b) had any noticeable improvement on any symptoms.

I still have the same symptoms, Dizziness, major sensitivity to jolting (especially car rides), sound and tension headaches (like pressure or tension band around the head).

thanks

[Mark in Idaho]

What kind of neurofeedback are you scheduled for?

Is it volitional or non-volitional ?

Does it have a proprietary name?

[JeanA]

I am a researcher working with neurofeedback for TBIs, "chemobrain" and MS. I've just worked with two young men, each of whom had had two concussions in quick succession. Before neurofeedback, both were assessed at about the 50th percentile; after 8 sessions, both were in the 90th-95th percentile. Obviously, both were very high functioning prior to the TBIs, and were returned to that condition.

In addition, headaches essentially disappeared and depression lifted.

The equipment we were using is called NeurOptimal, developed by the Zengar Institute of British Columbia. Very easy to use, does not require a Quantitative EEG for diagnosis.

This is not enough data for us to be sure that neurofeedback is a good way of addressing the problems that result from TBIs, but it seems very promising, and we are continuing to gather data, and hope to design a study that will be more definitive.

I hope this is helpful. Valleybob, I hope you'll post about your experience.

[Valleybob]

Hi Mark, I called and the tech wasn't sure what I mean by those terms you mentioned. She said I will be telling her what on the screen etc... But I read one of your previous posts from 2010 explaining the difference.

I'm glad you did because I'm going to try and find out if it's true neurofeedback or just for "relaxation".

[Chemar]

Hello JeanA and welcome to NeuroTalk
You are very welcome to share info gleaned from your research with our members, which I am sure they will find very helpful...... but I do just need to draw your attention to our guidelines that strictly prohibit any research on the posts made by our members, or to enlist them in research projects
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/showthread.php?t=1293

Originally Posted by JeanA

I am a researcher working with neurofeedback for TBIs, "chemobrain" and MS. I've just worked with two young men, each of whom had had two concussions in quick succession. Before neurofeedback, both were assessed at about the 50th percentile; after 8 sessions, both were in the 90th-95th percentile. Obviously, both were very high functioning prior to the TBIs, and were returned to that condition.

In addition, headaches essentially disappeared and depression lifted.

The equipment we were using is called NeurOptimal, developed by the Zengar Institute of British Columbia. Very easy to use, does not require a Quantitative EEG for diagnosis.

This is not enough data for us to be sure that neurofeedback is a good way of addressing the problems that result from TBIs, but it seems very promising, and we are continuing to gather data, and hope to design a study that will be more definitive.

I hope this is helpful. Valleybob, I hope you'll post about your experience.

[JeanA]

Thanks for the reminder, Chemar. My intent really is to be helpful to the list members...I have no agenda for myself here (though I expect to learn from the perspective of those experiencing neurological symptoms.

JeanA

[Mark in Idaho]

The system JeanA uses, NeurOptimal is a non-volitional system that uses visual and audio stimuli to try to retrain the brain. I spent quite a bit of time analyzing the research and am not particularly impressed.

The before and after comparison is based on self-reporting with no obvious effort to measure or adjust for placebo effect.

It appears to have some similarities to ROSHI but with more real time computer control.

It has no comparison to LENS, a non-volitional NeuroTherapy system that uses minute electromagnetic energy to stimulate the brain.

It also has no comparison to the volitional neurofeedback systems that require the subject to make positive efforts to effect real time change in EEG wave forms.

It looks to be the least intrusive of the non-volitional neurotherapy systems.

I did not research FDA comments but suspect it could be categorized as exempt under a 'relaxation device.'

If I find any other useful information, I will update my post.

[JeanA]

Hi, Mark.

If you've been researching neurofeedback this carefully, you know that there are very different views about how to approach feeding information back to the brain. I never want to subject a group whose focus is not neurofeedback to that cranky conversation, but let me just respond quickly to your comment about placebo.

I have some concern about that with TBI clients, since I have only worked with two (the third will start next week). However, with "chemobrain" (which has several significant things in common with TBI), we did a good study (the equipment did not make double-blinding possible, though that capacity is almost ready and the next study will use that upgraded software). We used 18 measures—13 were significant at p<.001. 21 of 23 participants essentially returned to normal. That's waaay too much for placebo.

When we have more TBI data, I'll be happy to share it here. There's no benefit to me in convincing people on this forum to try this approach. I posted because someone asked about neurofeedback, and I have some experience; I hope you will not discourage folks from exploring something that seems to offer potential.

[Mark in Idaho]

JeanA,

My big question for you is what criteria did you use to determine level of recovery/improvement?

I read the research/dissertation by Karen Cochrane and am not impressed with the self-reporting of changes.

Nor have I been able to find any other research of substance.

Of all the non-volitional neurotherapy systems, the NeurOptimal looks to be the safest and possibly the most understandable. The NeurOptimal practitioners throughout the country sure have a poor understanding of the ins and outs of neurotherapy, especially as it regards FDA and allowed uses.

[JeanA]

Mark, it seems like you and I could have some interesting conversation about this, and I'd be happy to do that, but I feel a little uncomfortable doing it in this arena—I can't imagine that anyone else on this forum is interested, and I generally hate it when a thread I am watching on a list I care about wanders onto a tangent like this. If you'd like to be in personal contact, please let me know.

Jean