Hi,
I think that both of your stories illustrate dynamics of moving about in public places that those of us in the 'burbs do not encounter.

The closest thing I have to dealing with strangers in an enclosed space is in the stores. And some stores I can avoid completely. I'd rather do without the item than be in some stores.

Grocery stores I cannot avoid. I noticed that I will drive past a grocery store or three to go to another branch of the same chain in order to have more room in the parking lot, more room in the aisles, shorter lines --- and less opportunity to have to see people in my personal space.

And I'm guessing that the amount of "personal space" we consider "personal" varies according to where we are.


It is not that I dislike dealing with people.
If a stranger engaged me on the open street or such, I would be ok and manage. But in the enclosed public space, I would not be happy.

Is this part of the dynamic??


Waves,
I would totally tell some kids to knock it off if I was in the place in my own head that told me this. Sometimes, people (and kids) need to be told. But again, I'd probably put up with their stupidity for a long time until the magic time when their stupidity met that right place in my head.



And I am thinking that this travel in public spaces is a special burden for people with MI.
The requirment to take a bus to work and so on, is probably a disincentive for some people to get and keep a job.
That stinks.

Mari

This... is an interesting observation. And probably very accurate. So now you leave me to ponder why the specific incidents that get me "animated" do... what do they represent within me.

Then again, not sure it was clear, i am not prone to such outbursts at all. When i'm hypo is when it seems to come out. Still, qualitatively there may be something to the types of incidents i react to. When i'm not hypo or leaning that way, i usually just sit and stew, sometimes wishing i had the guts to say something, sometimes just wishing our civilization were... more civilized. But perhaps even the concept of "civilization" is just an illusion we have to keep our egos fluffy. Maya.

In no way was i trying to compare my stories to the incident you described... regarding how the pan-handler was being judged, and how it affected you personally. Simply the thread had got sort of diluted with exchanges on subway and public transit stories and culture... i thought i'd toss mine in. i put in a separator line for good measure but still perhaps i was not clear. if any similarity between our experiences is to be noted it would only be in the context of the sociological phenomenon of how ppl are overall too inhibited to correct each other for the common good... yet when someone else does, suddenly there are a host of followers. like an empty dance floor... until the first person dances.

i was not trying to compare my telling off someone smoking or scribbling on the bus in any way to what or why you did what you did on the subway........ i did not mean to diminish the meaning in that story in and of itself. i'm sorry if my post came across that way.

the bit you quoted me on, about self-judgement v.s. remorse... that was a huge breakthrough for me in therapy, and in life. when we are able to be mindful of our self-judgements, and mitigate them with compassion, then we are more able to avoid judging others. i believe you have learned this in a deep, harsh way... by having been and continuing to be judged by the rules of our... dare i say it... "civilization." Maya.

may you encounter less and less judgement from those around you, for you have suffered more than enough by your own during times of turmoil.

may there be peace in your heart tonight. you are a deep and wonderful soul.

~ waves ~

Mari, i live in the suburbs but work would pretty much have to be in the city, and the buses to the city from here in rush hour are crowded, and the subway is like sardines.

I hate it. I hate having people sitting next to me that have physical contact with me just by the proximity of the seats. I have NEVER got used to it. I can "handle" it but when i am in a down phase, or worse, and anxious phase, or double worse, an anxious depression, FORGET IT. ain't get me on no bus. when i go to therapy is about it, and that's usually during "off times" and i avoid as much crowding as possible by leaving too early. i am also prone to self medicate under those conditions (drink) whether or not i have taken lorazepam!

I did not grow up this way. I did not take public transport for the first 16 years of my adult/working life in the US where i lived in a spacious layout of towns in central Florida. Even just moving to California was traumatic at first because it was so much more crowded (bay area) - traffic and people (stores). But heck, Albertsons was a walk away and 24/7 and very often i'd shop when the store was empty. i'd go to work late when the highway was empty and i could use the carpool lane as well as the other three. i'd get in trouble for it too (being late). I would shop night hours in FL too often, always been a night owl, never minded driving at night... would drive 30 minutes to the 24/7 walmart in Orlando area lol at 2 or 3 in the morning.

However the people-around-me issues got worse when i got here. There was no escape. It is everywhere. It is on the sidewalk.

Yes, very much so. Speaking distance for me with a coworker is comfortable at say 1 foot MAX. More for strangers, less only for someone with whom i'm intimate. here my first shock was it's like 6 inches with coworkers. and people talk louder. i step out of range. they step back in... besides that, in crowded places, the space does not allow for the "luxury" of personal space... and people often ignore it on the street. I've frequently walked on a NON crowded sidewalk, had someone brush my arm as they passed in the other direction... eg. two women chatting. some move if there is moving space, but many don't bother. it doesn't seem to bother them. so i zigzag. thank goodness there is no such thing as "reckless walking" - i used to be a zigzag driver (you'd hate to be on the road with me no doubt). For some reason, when i'm inside a car, i feel protected by this "exoskeleton and while traffic is stressful due to the level of attention needed, i can engage it and not be so bothered by it... not nearly as much as "people contact." is that weird or what?

Tritone we have totally hijacked this thread by now on sociological issues... These topics are interesting too tho... especially to those of us with any degree of social anxiety.

Back to personal space. This is different in every culture. there is something known as "the ambassador's dance" because in international meetings such movements as i described with coworkers, of drawing closer and further apart are typical, when a person of a culture that keeps a high personal space comes into contact with someone keeping a low personal space... one moves closer to be at the "right" distance... the other moves away to be... at the "right" distance. LOL.

Civilization. Maya.

Yup. even just to interview. and the commute time spent in those conditions... invariably at times which are crowded.

~ waves ~ from an unfortunately too remote distance

Hi Waves,

No - I totally got that you weren't trying to make any comparisons. You were very clear. I made the comparison as I've been in what I think is the same place you describe of speaking out as well as sitting and stewing... I was being repetitive I guess and just setting this latest thing apart from my other daily peeves... It seemed significant to make that distinction. I can also see how someone else might read this and think that I am the one being "self-righteous" - but it didn't feel that way to me.

It was very reflex-like And this is interesting because it seems everything I do these days, from getting up to taking my meds to going to work is so calculated and planned. There isn't much "mystery" left in life for me these days. So when I surprise myself and do something unplanned, spontaneous and like a reflex it gives me something to chew on and wonder about. I didn't say impulsive. Maybe it was impulsive. But what I think is reflex. Like breathing. Reflex vs Impulse. Is there such a thing? Maybe I'm splitting hairs now.

Nah, don't worry about hijacking the post. That's what it is here for. Please... breath some life into it!

Urban living... Can you say love hate relationship? I feel lost outside the city. As much as I love the fresh air and space and quiet... I'm just lost. There is no diversity. I feel even less of a chance of talking to someone who'll understand me than I do now. I've said it before, the diversity is the thing I love. I don't feel so weird. Outside the city people tend to be, at least superficially, much less diverse. They are much less exposed to things. My theory (please don't take this as a slight or insult) is that perhaps in the city people are a little closer to reality. At least it is very hard to live in the city and cloak yourself if a particular belief system or point of view and exclude all others.

Perhaps I could say this - I think for me it is going to be one of two extremes:

1 - live in the city with it's ups and downs

2 - live somewhere that is so remote i can be completely free and only deal with who I want to deal with when I want to deal with them.