So glad that things have taken a turn for the better Junie...thank you for sharing that. This is a wonderful forum to let it all out...and as Mistiis said..if you need help getting it in gear again...just hollar! *grin

This is so hard

Dear ((mistiis)) There are many people in this world who DO understand that most suicides are caused by a mental illness of some sort. There are two tragedies with every suicide.... one being the person who took their life saw suicide as their ONLY option. The second being the family left behind to suffer an unimaginable hell...

I have had suicide effect my life in the past. Each loss was tragic in its own right. Never once did I think badly of the person. If anything, my heart wept for the pain they must have felt. The personal hell they must have been in.

When David first told me that about my Dad, him not being capable of rational thought at that moment, I pondered and pondered about that. I kept thinking about that lady who drowned her children. I remember people saying she was out of her mind. I remember thinking, of course she was! No sane mind could do such a horrific thing. It led me to understand that Dad had an illness, and it wasn't of the cancer/ "physical" kind.

After Dad's suicide, I recall all too clearly the desperation I had to go be with him.....at any and all cost. I was in shock, I was in a deeper pain that I can ever try to express. I saw no way to live with this pain. I did not want to....my Dad was gone.

It was not his death that caused this type of pain, this type of reaction. It was the way in which he died. His "choice" to take his own life, to abandon me and our family.

His hell ended that day. Yet, his suicide created a new and certain hell for me to now face. Every single person who loved him, his 7 children, his wife, his ex wife(my mom) his siblings, his grandchildren, his friends.. each and every one of them..... now know a hell that was forced upon them. They had no choice. The whys, will never be answered. The what ifs will haunt each of us until our hell is over too.

My heart breaks because my Dad was in such excruciating pain. It kills me that I didn't know, that I wasn't able to help him, save him. It has the power to destroy me.

I think most people, at some point in their life have thought about how "easy" it would be to end it all. I know when I was diagnosed with my diseases, I could not imagine living in this horrific pain. I had major depression. Over the years I fought hard and I won that battle. So, I knew the beast of depression. I knew what it was like to believe you were in too much pain to face another day. But... it wasn't until Dad's suicide, until the pain of his loss was so great... that I knew what it was like to make a plan.

I CAN see it from both sides, because I have lived both sides. Neither side is easy. My heart breaks for Dad's pain. But, in brutal honesty, his "choice" has left more pain that he could have possibly been in. I do NOT say that lightly!! I can not know how much pain he was in, but I do know it had to have been great for him to reach that point. Even knowing that......... I feel certain that his own hell, his personal hell... was not as great as the hell he left behind. His personal hell has now spread, much like an invasive unrelenting cancer. It did not die with him. It now lives in each and every person who loved him.

*sigh, tragic no matter which side you try to look from. What can be done? If every person effected, on both sides.... reached out, did even one small thing toward... self help, prevention or helping the survivors left behind...
Imagine the possibilities!!!

We can never know the exact state of mind of person who commits suicide. Those who have tried come the closest.

But with that state of mind, do you think they were actually thinking of choices? I don't. I think it was the only thing they thought would stop the pain. Not really a choice. Just what they had to do.

I agree ((curious)) and is why I used "choice". With Dad I think the best words I can find is a desperate act. ~sigh

hey D, it's good to see you posting and get everyone's wonderful brain juices flowing...

I have another take on this...about honorable suicides...

the Japanese's honorable suicides because they were shamed

the suicide bomber's suicides because they were promised heaven...

I also wonder about the internet suicide and how SOME people can actually EGG on suicide telling the guy to "do it..."

sure, some of them would claim that they were just calling his bluff and such, but still....to have that kind of mentality to egg someone on whether to call someone's bluff or not bothers me...don't get me wrong, I DID stupid things in my life and still DO stupid things...

but I can't see myself egging someone else on no matter how much I think they're bluffing...

I know it is not what you're trying to convey but that's what's popping in my head at this time...it is 3:15am so I am sure I am NOT making any sense...LOL

I think one of the reasons this is so hard to talk about is, just like you said dear Alffe, the finality of that decision. But, I wonder, about the 'decision' in it. Its like being stuck in a really strong current. Some people survive and get pulled out or thrown a life line, and some, unfortunately do not. I look at it now as a very tragic accident. That is what suicide is, a very tragic accident. Accidents can be avoided. Some of them we can't make sense out of, others we can look at and say, oh there were drugs or alchohol involved causing it. There are just so many factors invovled in any one suicide. But, it is still a tragic accident!!!! And, in accidents, people get hurt. People die. People have to pick up the pieces. And people help people. That is what it is all about.

I was so moved by your reply about the repairman dear Alffe that I was in tears, for you, for him, for his brother. It filled me with so much emotion. I have never felt as strongly as I did at that moment to come on and post. But, then, I am having some issues to deal with that are making things really difficult right now. So I can see how, I think, each of you would have felt, and that poor man's brother.

Yes, depression, can be seen as a terminal illness. For some it can be more easily treated than for others. Blazing a path is a difficult thing to do. Like the first great explorers, it takes those willing to go where others have not. As can be seen with Pter, there are other ways to fight those thoughts, but there can be mitigating factors too.

So, I am exploring here. Everything that I can learn will help me, and anyone that I hope to help. I have seen the pain in anothers eyes from having lost loved ones to suicide, and the questions that remain after years. It is really heart wrenching. A statement that was made to me..."I don't understand how anyone could make that kind of choice" And all I could say was, I understand. I wish that I didn't. I really wish that I didn't understand. But, hopefully, understanding will enable me to reach out to others in prevention.



((((Nikki))))) Yes, I can imagine the possibilites.

Keep talking my friends. You are trail-blazers

I am sure many people think they "know" that once their family gets over the shock, that they will be better off without them. So they think they are doing them a favor. I remember one time feeling so insignificant that I was shocked when an automatic door detected my presence and open for me. I had totally expected to have to push it open. A few months later, I was reading a magazine and a woman was telling the same story, Imagine how many people must feel this way-so insignificant and yet such a burden.

((Sue)) I am saddened by your post, yet at the same time I admire your strength and courage

I can assure you, as much as someone may think they "know" the world would be better off without them, they are wrong. Dad did me no favors. There is not one thing in this world that is better without him. Not one. In fact it is a cold, dark, lonely place without him.

I am sure these thoughts were among many Dad had before he took his life.... I think it ironically tragic ... that what he may have thought would "help us" , destroyed us.

My dear friend, I "detect" your presence You have reached inside yourself time and time again to give, to children in need, to your family, your friends..... You have touched my heart, you have given me the gift of friendship....is that insignificant? Hardly! You are precious, never forget that

I love this quote, and it is my wish for you ((Sue))

“This is my wish for you: Comfort on difficult days, smiles when sadness intrudes, rainbows to follow the clouds, laughter to kiss your lips, sunsets to warm your heart, hugs when spirits sag, beauty for your eyes to see, friendships to brighten your being, faith so that you can believe, confidence for when you doubt, courage to know yourself, patience to accept the truth, Love to complete your life.”
Author: Unknown

I am not sure where to put this, so I thought where we are talking frankly I would post it here.....

This thought has been on my mind so much lately, I just have to get it out. I know the beast of depression. I have lived it. I know the struggles. As I told a dear friend of mine recently, I don't know your particular battle, but we are all in the same war.

I have been trying to find a delicate way to say what is in my heart..... please know I am not trying to offend anyone

I know many of you think you can imagine what it feels like to be a survivor of suicide. You think you can see both sides clearly. I feel this is one case you truly can not know, unless you have lived it. Unless you have lost someone you love, someone who was part of your soul .. you just can't possibly know.

I thought I could do this, turns out I am crying too much... just know, no matter how dark your world feels, people love you. If you can't hang on for you, damn well hold on for them! Much love to all of you

I can't find the post I wanted to respond to...it resounded in my soul. A tragic accident..........That's what Pter convinced me Michaels death was..a horrible ending to drinking brandy, playing the lottery and being lonely for his fiance'... Pters words exactly...a tragic accident.

And then the moderator telling me that she'd " never heard of someone putting a gun in their mouth and accidently blowing their head off."

Words hurt....words comfort. I came home to a ton of emails..one from my neighbor, deperately asking me to help..written last Sat. Her only remaining son wants them to go on a cruise with them as the anniversary of his brothers death approaches...I hope she'll do this...it won't matter where they are on that date, they'll be miserable in remembering.

We always used to go away on that date....somehow wanting/hoping to replace the memory with a new one.

Nikki.....I know that you know.... We are living examples of the lives that are ruined by anothers "actions".

Hugs for the room. *whisper...pretty depressing party you all had. *grin.