Vicky and Steffi do whatever is necessary to ease the hurt you are both feeling and stay here. We have lost so many over time and cannot afford to lose anymore.

Please

As long as I have known this forum, about five years now, more often than not, when someone talks of faith and Christianity, it is prefaced or followed by remarks about the forum's disdain for religion and for opinions based on faith and religion. I don't know where that feeling of resistance to faith and religion, that feeling of implied persecution has come from. In the past five years I have not once seen faith disparaged or religion belittled here.
Nor has anyone preached at me when I've said that I don't have faith, only hope. And no one will object when I say that you don't have to be a Christian to be a good person.

Pro life is an unfair name because it implies that we who are pro choice are pro death. Pro choice IS pro life. Abortion must be legal, or too many mothers' lives will be lost and too many unwanted children's lives will be blighted.
Artificial insemination is a slippery subject. I can't quite get my ethics to embrace the concept. I can accept a couple's use of their own egg and sperm to conceive in vitro if that is the only way they can conceive. But I don't like the idea of donor eggs or donor sperm. It just is not quite right - not because it goes against nature - but because it is, I think, "messy". It creates brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers in an unchecked profusion. That said, I have no wish to hit anyone over the head with my opinion.
But in all of the above, the horror is that the multitude of extra, unwanted, unneeded fetuses are thrown away, when they may hold potential for curing devastating illnesses. It is not just stupid, it is cruel to throw away what might save many more lives than the amount of trashed fetuses.
I am not at all sure that stem cell research will bring a cure to PD, but I am convinced that many other just as serious illnesses will benefit.

Thank you Paula, for sharing the article, it is a wonderful personal history of the illness we all share. I am very grateful to all you activists who do battle for the rest of us, who don't have the energy to fight.
And Olsen, thank you for volunteering!!!! I wish the job existed.

birte

This thread is meandering like a river so I'm going to toss in a friendly question that has had my attention and curiosity. Talking about Teresa prompted me to remember it, as she was the first to bring it up here on the forum.

Did anyone here ever really watch Bono closely and see signs of PD? I have a feeling he does have it after watching his hands, body posturing, fidgeting, arms crossed tightly. I also 'think it's a possibility because his father passed away from it.

I don't want to start a rumor about it; I'm only going on observations that Teresa mentioned and the few times I watched him on TV. Check it out the next time you spot 'him on television.

Let me know please if anyone learns anything.

thanks,
paula

My 2 cents for what its worth..I post on a political forum, and the religious debates are usually knock down drag out fights between the athiests, the agnostics and the Christians..Ive never given a whole lot of thought about the seperation of church and state except I thought it was a step in the direction of evil when as a result prayer was removed from the daily routine of school, and nativity scenes were banned on state and federal property..Then one day an athiest posted something that I had never given any thought to..He said.."Why should church property be tax exempt?..I dont believe in any God and the tax money exempt from those properties somehow, somewhere along the line comes out of my hide..Im an athiest and I have rights too"..Hence I finally understood the difference between the seperation of church and state..Thats what make this a democracy..Its got nothing to do with perceived right and wrong..It has to do with equal rights, and I think thats the crux of what Roe vs Wade is all about..When the church starts dictating policy, then its no longer a democracy anymore..Its a dictatorship because the unfaithful have no voice in the matter..Whether thats moral or immoral is not the question..It just is..It then is up to me to personally to make my own decisions and come to my own conclusions as to what I think is right for me, as to what my personal beliefs are, and not what is right or wrong for someone else

I think many of us have at one time or another struggled with the morality stem cell research..I have too..Sometimes I still do..But I also struggle with watching people suffer from this and other diseases, and I think that if someone wants stem cell research to move foward, then inspite of how I view the morallity or immorality of it, those that want it have the right to persue their goals, because stem cell resesrch is not illegal, and they should be afforded their constitutional rights..This is always where the debate gets ugly, because people have the right to not believe in a God if they so choose, and Ive come to respect that

...because I would love to get back to posting as I feel I do best..[well that might not be everyones opinion....smiling here] but what I mean is in my usual dippy crazy style.Not for one minute did I envisage getting embroiled in what has ensued...serves me right for trying to keep the peace between two people,both of whom are equally important.I seem to have got caught up in it nonetheless.
Thelma...I have no intention of going anywhere.I love this site and its people too much.
And just for the record..my points about Christianity were not to ram it down anyones throat.I have equal respect for non believers alike and wouldn`t dream for one minute to push my views on anyone.That is sooooo not my way.I was simply pointing out that even though I have a faith,I do not regard myself whiter than white.I smoke like a chimney,swear like a trouper...and do all manner of other things that I ought to have been cast into hells flames for.
Instead I spend part of my day beating myself with a sack of wet newspapers and make my peace with God...and mankind.
Now...about Bono...yes I heard a rumour too.B ut truly...don`t quote me on it.Incidentally..he`s also a Christian...whoops...only kidding...well no I`m not ..he is one ...but hey...lets not go there.

To you all..I am about to start my day here in the UK.To all of you here on this site...I wish each and every one of you an equally wonderful,,relatively painfree day when you awake in your part of the world.
Now...I`m off to find my newspapers cos i`ve said S*** and B****r and ******h***S so time to beat myself.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Dear Chelma and S,

Please point out to me where I insulted S
Chelma, I think it was wrong of you to edit my post, because it makes it harder for me to defend it.

My advise was simply that: Advice. A different way to look .......S interpreted my responce as a personal attack. It was not a personal attack.

If we love Jesus, we should want to emulate him and to obey his commandment to love (respect and help) our neighbors. Jesus also defended the miracle of life. When his disciples attempted to turn the children away from Jesus, he responded that "suffer the children to come unto me." He also said, "Unless one comes as a child, he will not find his way to heaven." I was suggesting that imitating Christ is not easy, but in no way did I suggest to follow him out of fear. Christ offers forgiveness to anyone who believes he died for their sins. But he also asked that we love him enough to emulate him, to show that we truly trust him to make the world a better place.

When Christ asks us as Christians to "pick up our crosses and follow him," he is not implying that if we don't die for him or are not perfect and follow the ten commandments, he will judge us as evil. God gave us the ten commandments not because he knew we could obey them at all times. Quite the opposite. God stated his ten commandments to demonstrate that no matter how hard man tried he could not keep them. He wanted us to know we need his grace as given by the Holy Spirit (not evangelists.) He then came to earth part man and part divine, to offer grace to those who have faith in his ressurection, that he willingly died for our sins, that he raised from the dead defeating Satin, and ascended to heaven.

He does firmly ask that we do not murder our fellow man. Call human blastocysts what you want, but they are the only cells that can develop into a human. God commanded Adam and Eve to go and increase the population. God created sex to be a gift only to married couples so that children would be conceived to parents who would have the responsibility of providing what the child needs to grow and to educate him in the ways of the Lord. Parents learned how to love someone more than themselves. This is as close an analagy as God's love for us as it gets. Bear in mind that a parent is not their child's buddy, but takes responsibility to correct the childs behaivior until the child's brain is matured enough to understand the correct way to live his life.

Somewhere child bearing became a right rather than a responsibility. Infertility clinics grew into vogue as more couples realized they had not been offered the gift by God. They called God unfair and insisted science discover and rectify what they perceived as an oversite on God's part.

Remember how the serpant convinced Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge? He suggested to her that why should God be the only one to know the difference between Good and Evil. That knowledge is both a curse and a gift to mankind. A curse because mankind is unable to always make the correct decision without being firmly rooted in the present world and looking out for number one. No matter how hard we try, we cannot be the perfect beings we could have been had Adam and Eve not sinned.

The serpant is hard at work trying to convince us that we can be equals to God the trinity. He is there to bolster us up in our wrong thinking and laughing at us for getting tripped up. If you are at all interested in reading a book that shows the devil at work in our lives in a humorous way, I would strongly suggest you consider reading C.S. Lewis's book, " The Screwtape Letters."

Radio, I am not evil for suggesting that we accept what today's science offers us and make the best of what we have. I am also not a "girlie, or kook" because I have different beliefs than yours. You may state that you were stating your opinion, however, you did it in an insulting and combative way using sarcasm to belittle my arguments.

I do not believe this forum is as open to different opinions as it pretends to be. It is too political and will only get worse as the presidential election approaches. As I said before, I will no longer post on this forum. I have never changed my beliefs, and there is no doubt, as shown by the responces I have received on the thread, that my input is unwelcome.

Vicky

How very dramatic...

The one thing I have yet to hear from people who are anti-stem cell research is an answer to this question. "What should be done with the leftover cells?" People talk about this as if scientists were raiding nurseries at hospitals. It's disingenuous and it's dishonest.

If you are against embryonic stem cell research, then what should be done with the leftover cells?

The steaks were delicious.

And frankly, Vicky, I don't believe for a MOMENT that you're done posting. But if you can't stand to read opinions that don't agree with yours, maybe that is the right decision.

Sigh....

No one called you "evil."

No one "insulted" you. I just "disagreed" with you.

And I called you "Girlie" after you called me "atheist." Now, which of us got the worst of THAT exchange?

Your opinion is as valid as anyone else's. But you continue to ignore the fact that these cells "that will grow into babies" will NOT "grow into babies" because they are destroyed ANYWAY. Talk to us about THAT fact, and tell us why those cells shouldn't be used to improve the lot of mankind. Frankly, to use your analogy, I'd be perfectly comfortable standing in front of that freezer making that choice, since I know the ones I didn't choose are goin' right to the medical waste incinerator. Those are the choices, Vicky! This is the real world! The fertilized embryonic remainders from in vitro fertilization currently have ONE destiny!

Medical Waste!

Most Americans in poll after poll after poll would like these cells to be put to good use.

I'd be interested in hearing from you what SHOULD be done with these cells, Vicky. What would you do with the left over cells from in vitro fertilization?

And see. I knew you weren't done posting.

Chasmo's new avatar (lookin' good !!) and expressing only my personal view, are we really going to get anything more from this thread in its present form.

Nice story PaulaW you posted at the start of the thread and my vote goes to close it.

Aftermathman.

ENOUGH with the personal stuff now please!!

Vicky, your post was edited because you did not respond to two PMs from me, with the second one requesting firmly that you self edit or a mod edit would take place. I waited hours for a response and then did what admin instructed by editing on your behalf.
Your comments in that post to other members were flaming and that is against guidelines
Your last post has also been edited for a similar reason, plus for using someone's full name and not their user name....the member has not given permission for their name to be used here on a public forum

As much as I am willing to give a lot of leeway in this discussion and allow freedom of speech, personal attacks and posts reported as "flaming" are against the guidelines of NeuroTalk and will be edited

To the members who are conducting this discussion respectfully and without personal negative comments, thank you and my apologies for intruding. I hope it will not be necessary again.

still staying cool
Cheri