Susanne, you were questioning what Joe did if I told him I wanted the marriage to end. I have asked him to leave - he won't. If I say I want a divorce he says "Do what you have to " very sarcasticly and snidely. He treats the situation the same as if I am trying to address his putting me down - very cruelly. He says if I take the kids he will call the police. And I am no going to do that to my kids. My older children had police issues with thier bio parents and still have night mares, so I can't do that. He Dr.Jekll and Mr. Hyde and won't see.

I wonder how other caregivers have reacted, or have other marriages reacted to these situations?

I am going to re-read your post a couple of times and think through this overnight. I AM listening to you. You have raised alot of issues and I am now understanding your disability. I hope others will chime in too, to offer help and compassion. I need to think about everything you said. Your situation is indeed serious, and it needs serious thought. I will be back here Blaine. You are in my prayers this very moment. ginnie

Blaine I am so sorry you are going through this. Here are a couple of links that explain things better than I could, I think you will find many things that fit your relationship in the information.

http://www.domesticviolence.org/violence-wheel

http://www.heart-2-heart.ca/women/page5.htm

The first link has a number for the National Domestic Violence Hotline, if you called them they could probably tell you what resources are available in your area if you can't find out. Most rural areas have a crisis line, they could probably tell you as well. This link also mentions using a safe computer if you need to.

The first thing they will probably ask is "Are you safe?" Verbal abuse can sometimes escalate into physical violence when the abuser feels threatened with loss of control so be careful and take care of yourself. How does he treat the horses? If he tends to get too aggressive with them be very
careful.

You are right that it will be hard and overwhelming to leave but it sounds like staying is hard and overwhelming too, all the stress isn't doing your pain levels and ability to function any good...'a worthless blob???!!' The DV people should be able to help you with the logistics. Some places have very good resources, I think there are some where women can stay for up to a year but I'm not sure how common that is, other places may offer fewer resources.

I know its hard to leave those horses too, I sold my dressage horse when I got divorced and 30 years later I still wonder how far she could have gone and what kind of foals she might have thrown. Maybe you could find a situation where you could still ride at some point.

Try the DV help and stay safe and in touch.
Zygo

PS: Is there any chance he would go to counseling with you or allow you to go by yourself?

He has never been physical with me or the horses. But it is an interesting thing about the horse riding. Any one who rides knows it is always rider error, yet to this day he still blames his horse for ANY mistakes. He especially won't listen to me trying to help him learn. He has become involved with horse because of me and has learned to ride as an adult which is very hard to do. We have done a lot of clinics through our club and they have taught him the same things I have and he will even laugh a little sarcastically about how I have been saying that for years. But he will NOT recognize that I have the knowledge to help him work with his horse. He has a great horse now who has had some problems in the past. But if ANY little thing goes off Joe will automatically reprimand the horse and his anger and frustration level goes to rage immediately and he blames the horse for the problem when it is nearly always Joes responsibility or fault - very much like he treats me. Thank you Zygo, I am sure you understand.
I will take what you have said though and look at the site you recommend - thank you. I do believe this is abuse, but it wasn't always this way, and at one time I treated him horribly as well. Where do you lay down the blame when both of you were doing at one time, but one has stopped. I was never as insulting as he is now, but I have always had a quick and sharp temper. I have lost my patience and have been very difficult to be around in the past 4 years - I'm no prize. I'm not saying that to excuse his behavior, I am saying it to take responsibility for how I was 11 months ago. Since February I have worked my BUT* off to change. I tried to include him in this but he has been wary of any change on his part, as I have described. I wish I knew what it was that "made me seethe light", but one day something just shifted and suddeenly I saw! I really, really saw what it was I was doing by being so quick to engage in Joes temper tantrums. I just could see how hurtful it was to talk like that back to him, how awful it was for my kids to see it, and how damaging it was to all the relationships around us. It was so obvious and there! I just wish I could show him....

Blaine, you really have done so well. You really saw what this was doing to yourselves and especially your children. Unfortunately, he has not and probably will not change.

When you say you wish you knew what it was that "made me see the light"; you began your recovery. With the help of God, I pray that you will continue on your "road to recovery".

Have a Blessed Christmas. If you do; your children will have one as well.
Ger

Yes, I hope that you both are able to have a good Christmas for the sake of the family. Also, don't underestimate the financial stress the holidays add to a difficult situation.

I do not want to encourage you in the least to stay in an unsafe situation, or even one that is stealing your soul little by little and adding to the immense burden you are already carrying from your childhood, but...

It does sound like your marriage may be salvageable, especially if he would be willing to get counseling. Is there a priest or minister you could talk to? Even if you aren't Catholic, many priests are excellent marriage counselors, they have heard everything imaginable, and it would be low or no cost. (by low I mean a small donation, they do not charge!)

Do not give up, but set boundaries. He needs to see that this is the new normal, and that he has to deal with it better. Some men are blamers. My husband is. He is a kind man who treats me like very well, but he has always been quick to blame other things for his failings, and his first reaction to having done something wrong is often anger, or at least grumpiness. I think it is a common trait in men.

It seems like you both have a lot of baggage that hasn't been dealt with, and is now sabotaging your marriage. Some of what you have said gives me hope, but you definitely need at least one third party to intervene and help you re-establish a healthier relationship. Would it be a relief to him to walk away from all the debt? Are you both committed to staying where you are?

You and your family are in my thoughts and prayers.

I may have misunderstood your earlier posts, I thought you were just overwhelmed with the logistics of leaving. I understand its hard either way.

Here's a link to a marriage forum, if you don't like that one there are a ton of them online. I looked at it briefly and it seemed to have some good info.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/

I agree that third party intervention would be the best but it sounds like that may be hard to achieve. Is there anyone at all you could talk to, Dr, etc.?

You mentioned that you felt much of the problem is that your husband has become a 'forced caregiver'. Is he still working and then coming home to a lot of household responsibilities or staying at home full time to care for you?
Is there anything you can do to help that? Do the kids help? Could you hire someone for a few hours a week to do part of it? Maybe there are some small ways you can lessen the stress for both of you.

I hope you will have as good a Christmas as you can, give that old horse a pat for me.

Zygo

Hi Blaine, I just wanted to post and reach out to give you an e-hug (a gentle one). I can't give much of an advice but I am thinking of you and hoping for the best, for you and your kids and for the horses. It must be so, so hard for you to deal with all of these while being in a pain that not many others understand, and I wish leaving a message for you gives you some hope as that somewhere, someone else cares and has you in their thoughts. Be well!

May there be peace in your home today. You are in my thoughts on Christmas. I did post to you privately. I really hope that you are ok. ginnie

12/26/11
I feel like a fraud. Do I qualify as a victim of domestic violence with a massive outburst from him just once a month and little things a few other times a month. So, so, so many women have it a thousand times worse, and how much of this did I bring on myself? Or how much did I “train” him into with my reacting to his tantrum/ “enabling” his behaviors. I really feel that what he does is absolute abuse - but does it qualify me to take the place of a women is experiencing real domestic violence - physical violence?. I guess that’s what I am having a hard time convincing myself - the realness of my situation - what is this really? And again this has only become this terrible since the demands of my condition began.

I have looked back at the beginning of my relationship with Joe though. I have come to realize that he has always been a bit narcissistic. It always been a big deal to make the day about him, or the story about him, or the attention focused on him. I never realized this until recently - well just the other day when you showed me mrsD. I remember when we began therapy a couple years ago and therapist told him that I was not to be his emotional nurturer anymore. I am not sure of the exact words, but the role I held was that of a sort of mother and Joe expect me to be his emotional surrogate and it was just to draining. I had four kids and couldn’t with him needing me so much. That was the biggest and first blow to our relationship and to this day he still resents it. That to be speaks so much of his narcissism - he wants to be first and have all my attention and really makes him bitter when he doesn‘t get it. Now with my condition, not only isn‘t first emotionally, he is in the position as a caretaker, whereas before I was the caretaker.

Zygo - I am so confused. I don’t know what to do. If he talks to me condescendingly and sarcastically I felt adamant I wanted to leave. But then days later working out the logistics and feeling like a failure I have weakened and feel like I am not making the right choice by leaving. Not just that I am not really a victim of domestic violence - its just that usually its not this bad. Who has a perfect life. Lets just say he never belittled or put me down again. Our marriage still would not be fulfilling but it would be adequate. For the children, this would be enough for me to make it work. Maybe, I then say -to myself do I really want them growing up accepting a marriage that is the equivalent to this? It goes back to the philosophy days of when we all question what were going to get out of life and we say were going to have the best marriage ever. Writing this all down though really makes me feel better and confused at the same time. I also can’t call any of the resources you sent me, but I did look at the sites and the cycles are exactly what happens with us. I would like to go and talk with a church leader when the kids get off their Christmas break. I usually don’t drive because it causes severe pain but I am going to make a day when I can get the kids off to school and try to finds some more information on help if I do leave. Especially on my children, he swears that I won’t ever get to see my kids again if I leave. Because my condition prevents me from caring for them he says no judge will ever grant me custody of them - that is probably true- so how could I ever leave him - I can’t loose my kids they are only 5, 8, 10, and 13. He says that I wont get visitation rights because of all the medication I am on. This one I don’t believe, but it doesn’t matter. I could not live a life with out living with my children or animals. There is no reason to live then. I am hoping that when I am able to look into it further there will be information that says there is more support for me.

He has agreed to go back to counseling - but we still have the problem of A) we don’t have a therapist locally who is experienced with couples dealing with chronic pain and B) I don‘t know if he with will ever see that he is an abuser and narcissistic. I do know that subconsciously he is aware of it. There are times that he alludes to it, but in no way is he genuine about it. I am also the one that has to find a counselor - which inevitably he will find fault with and blame. I think I will find a few , then have him choose. I will just have to give up on having one that has experience with chronic pain issues. A giant issue is finances and somehow we have to work together to manage that - but he won’t let me. I am at a loss as how to help him reduce the stress that finances play on our marriage.

He does do a full day at work and then come how and helps his aunt prepare dinner or helps me deal with the special needs of our two older children that I get overwhelmed with emotionally because of their attachment disorders. The kids do helps tremendously and perhaps they could help more. The problems is right now the two older ones are not trustworthy at all. So you cannot have them out of your sight or rely on them to be responsible or reliable. It requires a lot of follow-up and questioning and gets very tedious and is very straining on the family. Unfortunately we do not have the finances to hire anyone to help out - that would be the most wonderful thing in the entire world though. It would be so relieving to have someone available do the household chores and help out around outside a bit also.

Susanne, when you said ---- Do not give up, but set boundaries. He needs to see that this is the new normal, and that he has to deal with it better. Some men are blamers. My husband is. He is a kind man who treats me like very well, but he has always been quick to blame other things for his failings, and his first reaction to having done something wrong is often anger, or at least grumpiness. I think it is a common trait in men. That really meant a lot. It says a lot to. Maybe it is true. I don’t tend to be very observant about other peoples relationships, so I don’t notice if this is a common behavior for men/husbands. But for Joe it has gone to an extreme level. Setting up boundaries is what I have been trying to do and it is not making him very happy. It is creating a lot of strife. It is a trigger for him to have me not react to his insults. It makes him angrier. But maybe he can get it in his head one day that it is not right to behave that way. We would both like to leave the current house we are at, but need to find the right kind of place to move into.

I have so much baggage - how do I deal with my baggage Susanne? Please - Where do I start? How do I address it. I have been in therapy for things that happened to me as a child, felt that they were fairly well resolved. But if my life is this messed up now - I must not be right in the head somehow.

We had a very up and down Christmas he gat angry and apologized a few times. I refused to engage with him on any of those times. It was nice for the children though.

Ginnie I will be contacting you privately, I would like to hear more of your story and talk more about my situation and confusion.

Thank you everyone for listening to me and being there for me through the holidays, when you all have your own lives, concerns and stresses, you sent me your love, prayers, warmth and wishes - THANK YOU!!!!